Article 430 Servo & Stepper Motors

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megloff11x

Senior Member
I propose that Article 430 add a new sub-section to cover servo motor and stepper motor systems separately from other motor types. Further, the requirements for these new servo motor and stepper motor sections should be determined by new testing.

In particular, I think that they should have different fuse/circuit breaker and wire size requirements than other motor systems.

Aside from inrush to the amplifier, which can be nipped by using a NTC inrush suppressor and a D-curve breaker, these systems just don't draw as much current as other motors.

If the controller amplifier prevents a locked rotor condition, you shouldn't need to make the motor wire big enough to withstand what it will never experience. Most of these controllers do prevent this from happening.

Many small servo and stepper motors are used in robotic or moving and positioning systems. The wire is flexed and twisted. Fatter wire breaks sooner, no matter how well the manufacturer's high continuous flex & torsion guidelines are followed. And this too should be in the code.

If the motor is drawing less than an amp, why do I need to use 14AWG or even 18AWG wire? Why not 22AWG or 24AWG? Is it safer to have a cable of 14AWG wires that kneads itself into a break or short in a few months, than a 22AWG that lasts for years and never gets warm?

The hazardous location issue also needs to be addressed. Most "suitable" conduit doesn't last long when continuously flexed and twisted. Article 500 and subsequent articles allow for shielded flexible cable to be used without conduit in certain cases. The code should make moving motor connections a part of this.

Basically we have motor systems that are different enough to merit their own rules. Their rules should take into account system needs of smaller wire and moving parts.
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: Article 430 Servo & Stepper Motors

This all sounds reasonable but I know nothing about the systems you are talking about. If something like this is going to happen, someone is going to have to put a proposal into Code language that meets the NEC Style Manual. If you can write the text, we can help with the language and style. Additionally, we will all try to pick apart the proposal so that it will pass muster when it hits the panel. :D
 

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Article 430 Servo & Stepper Motors

Please review the Welcome topic and restate your Proposal.

This forum can only comment on a Proposal that you are contemplating actually making to the NFPA.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Re: Article 430 Servo & Stepper Motors

Its a good point, however many of the applications of these motors would fall under NFPA79 issues as well so you would need to get the people on that standrad in on it as well.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Article 430 Servo & Stepper Motors

Originally posted by rbalex:
This forum can only comment on a Proposal that you are contemplating actually making to the NFPA.
Do we really have to be so formal? :confused:
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: Article 430 Servo & Stepper Motors

Bob, I don't think we have to be real formal but that is the intent of this forum. If we just want to discuss something, it can go to another forum. Bob Alexander is the official moderator of this forum and we need to follow his lead. If you look at the other threads, we have not been terribly formal but we have done some good work. :D
 

megloff11x

Senior Member
Re: Article 430 Servo & Stepper Motors

I thought I was covered:

1) Section 430 - all
2) Recommend - add new sections to cover servo and stepper motor systems
3) Propose - develop requirements specific to this area. Want thinner wires, flex/torsion requirements, hazardous requirements spelled out.
4) Substantiate - Specifically, amplifiers prevent bound rotor issues so why not use thinner wire. Thicker wires break sooner than thin when flexed and twisted. What is the greater hazard, not fat enough for a locked rotor that will never occur or breaks itself open from moving and shorts/opens. Wire requirements should be based on the real system, not taken from the sump pump in your basement or the VFD driven plant motor.

This would require that the makers of these types of motors get involved and provide the data. These are the motors found on the automatic machines at the car plant, or wafer processing machines, or the kids robot wars machines. They aren't the same, and the current code doesn't fit them well.

If I submitted a request, I don't work for a servo motor maker, so I can't provide the needed data. This would be a fairly involved thing. What to do? Try and coordinate all or most of the servo and stepper makers, get them to commit to spending their hard earned money to gather and submit data?
 

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Article 430 Servo & Stepper Motors

From the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects in Paragraph 4-3.3 states:
Each proposal shall be submitted to
the Council Secretary and shall include the following:
(a) Identification of the submitter and his or her affiliation (i.e. technical committee, organization, company), where
appropriate
(b) Identification of the document, edition of the document, and paragraph of the document to which the proposal is
directed
(c) Proposed text of the proposal, including the wording to be added, revised (and how revised), or deleted
(d) Statement of the problem and substantiation for proposal
(e) Signature of the submitter
(f) Two copies of any document(s) (other than an NFPA document) being proposed as a reference standard or
publication (see 3-3.7)
Items "b," "c" and "d" are what we are requesting on this forum.

Without item "c", what you are submitting is actually only a "suggestion" and many CMPs can (and usually will) reject it without further review - no matter how good the suggestion may be. Occasionally, a CMP may decide it's such a good idea they will generate the text necessary, but you can't count on it.

Some of your suggestions actually belong in the NEMA or UL product standards.

You are submitting a proposal to CMP11, but CMP14 would be affected. In general, the CMPs attempt to avoid "stepping on each other toes" and the TCC is supposed to enforce that. Most of the relevant hazardous location requirements are covered in Art 501.
One, with regard to flexible connections is discussed here . "Sliding" connections for motors in Classified locations are covered in 501.8.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Article 430 Servo & Stepper Motors

Charlie and Bob we have always been relaxed about how questions where asked and this seems to be a change.

Part of the problem may stem from how I literally look at this forum. :)

When I click my bookmark named Mike's this is what I get.
Mike's

Because I always view the forum from that page it is a forum without borders so to speak.

I never pay attention to what 'category' a post has been placed in. :(

I will have to pay more attention. :D

Originally posted by rbalex:
I've been asked to develop a FAQ on how to submit formal Proposals. Since my own success rate is only about 35% and the one "nearest and dearest" to my heart has failed routinely(4 for 4), I'm not sure I'm qualified :D
35%?? can anyone else claim that success rate. :cool:

What is the one near and dear to you?

Bob

[ November 23, 2004, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Article 430 Servo & Stepper Motors

Bob,

No offense was taken at all; in fact, its helping me crystallize what I want to put in the forum FAQ.

I really haven't made all that many proposals, but I've had very good success with CMP14. I received a lot of support from API. Several Proposals that were submitted by API were my original ideas and I actually authored the "Code text."

I made a Proposal for 110.9 in the '96 cycle and I've gone "0 for 4" either in the Proposal or Comment stage. API has since taken up the gauntlet and they have met with the same success.

It's "near and dear" to me because I know what we are proposing is safe but it's very difficult to convince an insecure AHJ if you explain the implications of the literal text to them. The truth is, most engineers commonly violate the literal text either through ignorance or, occasionally, deliberately for most "closed-transition" secondary selective distribution systems and automatic transfer switches. Most AHJs don't recognize it. I feel "professionally" obligated to explain the implications. I admit, I have always prevailed eventually, but I'd rather not have to fight it at all. And I don't think a 90.4 "special permission," should be necessary.

I'll post my next version of the Proposal in the forum eventually.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: Article 430 Servo & Stepper Motors

From what I have read from this proposal is, it is a manufacturing design issue that an engineer would deal with on a case by case base. I would not think an ordinary electrician would ever work on this type of equipment without special training and manuals that would direct him/her to replace a given wire with that same type of wire or conductor cable Assembly. This would not be a NEC code as there would be too many different design's that would require special cables for each design. This would not be commonly done in the field with off the market type wires or cable assembley's. If this was made into a code it would be a book by it's self.

[ November 23, 2004, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Re: Article 430 Servo & Stepper Motors

If thats the case it could be handled by adding a section that says you can do such a thing if following the manufacturer's reccomendations.

Should be generic for all such things though - servos, steppers, VFDs, electronic drives of all types.

Its pretty common to ignore certain NEC requirements when they just are not workable, but I suppose an AHJ could get ornery about it and since these things are so widely used, maybe its time to cover it.

[ November 24, 2004, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: Article 430 Servo & Stepper Motors

A lot of proposals are generated by individuals who are trying to get relief from a particular inspector or group of inspectors. :D
 
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