ASTM vs UL

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goldstar

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  1. Is an EI within his right to insist on UL certification for an electrical product that you are installing ?
  2. Is an ASTM certified product an acceptable alternative?

For those of you who don't know :
ASTM = American Society for Testing and Materials
(ASTM International; West Conshohocken, PA)

In this thread I started regarding Bumper boats and chargers:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=191518

The bumper boat company built these boats and use chargers built to ASTM standards. There are no UL stickers on either of them and I don't know that an ASTM sticker even exists.
 
  1. Is an EI within his right to insist on UL certification for an electrical product that you are installing ?
  2. Is an ASTM certified product an acceptable alternative?

For those of you who don't know :
ASTM = American Society for Testing and Materials
(ASTM International; West Conshohocken, PA)

In this thread I started regarding Bumper boats and chargers:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=191518

The bumper boat company built these boats and use chargers built to ASTM standards. There are no UL stickers on either of them and I don't know that an ASTM sticker even exists.

In my opinion the inspector himself has no such right. On the other hand the authority having jurisdiction does. I don't know of any ASTM standards for battery chargers for bumper boats. In any case ASTM does not certify anything nor List It.
 
ASTM is a set of materials testing standards that everyone agrees on, such as hardness of steel, air pressure, weights and measures reporting etc. But there is no actual testing organization and no “listing”. In fact there are no real electrical standards associated with ASTM, other than some esoteric ones such as ways to measure emissions, things like that. The use of those terms in response to a question about UL product listing would be a red flag of obfuscation to me: meaning they don’t have it and are worried about that so they bring up something else in hopes that you don’t know what it means and will accept it in lieu of UL listing.

As to whether or not you need “listing”, that is usually something required by some States (28 at last count) but some states don’t require anything at all and the NEC itself is somewhat vague about it. Whether a State requires it is usually determined by State amendments to the NEC, aka “State Codes” in some cases, or by State worker safety tegulations. But if required in your State, it’s generally NOT going to insist on UL itself, but rather a listing by an NRTL; Nationally Recognized Testing Lab, of which UL is just the most widely known and who creates and maintains most of the testing standards themselves (meaning other labs test and list items, but do so using UL’s standards). OSHA maintains a list of accepted NRTLs and most states that require it will reference that list, although some states have their own and may be shorter or longer (often favoring local labs).

OSHA itself however actually DOES require NRTL listings for equipment used “in the workplace”, so if this facility has “workers”, it is going to need it. OSHA of course is not a policing agency, but they are Judge, Jury and Executioner for employers. So for example if the employer of these chargers has an accident that triggers an OSHA investigation, and the devices in question are in any way involved, OSHA could shut them down in a heartbeat. Do people often ignore that risk to their business? All the time. But that doesn’t make it OK to ignore it.
 
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As to whether or not you need “listing”, that is usually something required by some States (28 at last count) but some states don’t require anything at all and the NEC itself is somewhat vague about it. Whether a State requires it is usually determined by State amendments to the NEC, aka “State Codes” in some cases, or by State worker safety tegulations. But if required in your State, it’s generally NOT going to insist on UL itself, but rather a listing by an NRTL; Nationally Recognized Testing Lab, of which UL is just the most widely known and who creates and maintains most of the testing standards themselves (meaning other labs test and list items, but do so using UL’s standards). OSHA maintains a list of accepted NRTLs and most states that require it will reference that list, although some states have their own and may be shorter or longer (often favoring local labs).

Is there even a standard for bumper boat battery chargers that some NRTL could list them to? I am not sure what standard ASTM produces that would even apply to a bumper boat battery charger.

This cannot be the first time the bumper boat company has run across a local inspector that expects some kind of listing.

Incidentally there are tons of products that are not listed that are very common and no one cares. Including OSHA. One that comes to mind is the common car. Bicycles are not listed either. Nor is most clothing.

Incidentally, I do not think at least most forklift battery chargers are listed either.
 
ASTM is a set of materials testing standards that everyone agrees on, such as hardness of steel, air pressure, weights and measures reporting etc. But there is no actual testing organization and no “listing”. In fact there are no real electrical standards associated with ASTM, other than some esoteric ones such as ways to measure emissions, things like that. The use of those terms in response to a question about UL product listing would be a red flag of obfuscation to me: meaning they don’t have it and are worried about that so they bring up something else in hopes that you don’t know what it means and will accept it in lieu of UL listing.

As to whether or not you need “listing”, that is usually something required by some States (28 at last count) but some states don’t require anything at all and the NEC itself is somewhat vague about it. Whether a State requires it is usually determined by State amendments to the NEC, aka “State Codes” in some cases, or by State worker safety tegulations. But if required in your State, it’s generally NOT going to insist on UL itself, but rather a listing by an NRTL; Nationally Recognized Testing Lab, of which UL is just the most widely known and who creates and maintains most of the testing standards themselves (meaning other labs test and list items, but do so using UL’s standards). OSHA maintains a list of accepted NRTLs and most states that require it will reference that list, although some states have their own and may be shorter or longer (often favoring local labs).

OSHA itself however actually DOES require NRTL listings for equipment used “in the workplace”, so if this facility has “workers”, it is going to need it. OSHA of course is not a policing agency, but they are Judge, Jury and Executioner for employers. So for example if the employer of these chargers has an accident that triggers an OSHA investigation, and the devices in question are in any way involved, OSHA could shut them down in a heartbeat. Do people often ignore that risk to their business? All the time. But that doesn’t make it OK to ignore it.
Good explanation. Thanks.
 
Is there even a standard for bumper boat battery chargers that some NRTL could list them to? I am not sure what standard ASTM produces that would even apply to a bumper boat battery charger.

This cannot be the first time the bumper boat company has run across a local inspector that expects some kind of listing.

Incidentally there are tons of products that are not listed that are very common and no one cares. Including OSHA. One that comes to mind is the common car. Bicycles are not listed either. Nor is most clothing.

Incidentally, I do not think at least most forklift battery chargers are listed either.
Yes, there is a standard, actually several of them depending on the use of the battery charger, i.e. chargers for engine starting batteries is a different standard than for electric vehicles or for removable battery packs etc. if I had to guess, I'd think these boat chargers would fall under the standard for electric vehicle chargers, UL 2202.

Yes there are tons of things that don't need NRTL listings, but not a lot of electrical things.

PS: there is actually a specific UL standard for this. UL-458, Standard for Power Converters/Inverters and Power Converter/Inverter Systems for Land Vehicles and Marine Crafts
 
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Yes, there is a standard, actually several of them depending on the use of the battery charger, i.e. chargers for engine starting batteries is a different standard than for electric vehicles or for removable battery packs etc. if I had to guess, I'd think these boat chargers would fall under the standard for electric vehicle chargers, UL 2202.

Yes there are tons of things that don't need NRTL listings, but not a lot of electrical things.

PS: there is actually a specific UL standard for this. UL-458, Standard for Power Converters/Inverters and Power Converter/Inverter Systems for Land Vehicles and Marine Crafts

I wonder if anyone actually builds anything to these standards.

I looked at the TOC and chapter 1 for UL458. Does not sound like it fits very well to this application. Seems more like on board power supply systems to me, and not for off board charging.
 
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