Atm gfci?

[PCN]

How about a gas pump ???

I think you've hit on some very good points M.D. Great questions.
The Vegas thing is interesting as well, I've never worked on a casino, I wonder if the slot machines have an integrated gfi in the plug?
Most of our vending machines are equiped with this.

 

[PCN]

An ATM dispenses money (product) for a fee by the insertion of a token (card). I would have to agree with the inspector and give him a lot of credit. He really had to dig deep to come up with that.

Our engineer has butted heads with this inspector before. That often dictates how deep an inspector is willing to dig to find a violation.
This isn't the first odd one from this guy.

The bottom line is it does make a safer enviroment for the public, I can't argue with that.

All it takes is one meatball geting zapped and we get sued for millions, then that $20 gfi dosen't sound so crazy.

 

[weressl]

A card is not a token.

OK, lets go to the dictionary:

to⋅ken

   /ˈtoʊ

kən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [toh-kuh

n] Show IPA Pronunciation

?noun 1.something serving to represent or indicate some fact, event, feeling, etc.; sign: Black is a token of mourning. 2.a characteristic indication or mark of something; evidence or proof: Malnutrition is a token of poverty. 3.a memento; souvenir; keepsake: The seashell was a token of their trip. 4.something used to indicate authenticity, authority, etc.; emblem; badge: Judicial robes are a token of office. 5.Also called token coin. a stamped piece of metal, issued as a limited medium of exchange, as for bus fares, at a nominal value much greater than its commodity value.6.anything of only nominal value similarly used, as paper currency.7.an item, idea, person, etc., representing a group; a part as representing the whole; sample; indication.8.Logic, Linguistics. a particular instance of a word, symbol, expression, sentence, or the like: A printed page might have twenty tokens of the single type-word ?and.? Compare type (def. 8).?verb (used with object) 9.to be a token of; signify; symbolize.?adjective 10.serving as a token: a token gift; a token male on an all-female staff. 11.slight; perfunctory; minimal: token resistance. ?Idioms

 

[M. D.]

O.K. ,.. this is bugging me,.. don't ask why ,. I'm not sure I could tell you...

So I have an ATM manufactured 6 months ago ,.. it does not have gfci protection on the supply cord.. it is listed in the 2008 white book under one of these TPEU or BALT..

U.L. white book

Automated teller machines (ATMs) investigated for security and burglary

resistance are covered under Automated Teller Systems (TPEU).
ATMs that have not been investigated for security and burglary protection
are covered under Bank Equipment (BALT).​

and not listed as one of these​

Same book

Machines for vending nonrefrigerated food and beverages, general merchandise,

etc., are covered under Vending Machines (YWXV).
Machines for vending refrigerated food and beverages are covered under
Vending Machines, Refrigerated (SQMX).​

​

Now can an AHJ refuse the installation because it /he /she/ they say it is not a listed vending machine ,. regardless of whether or not I have provided GFCI protection??​

​

​

​

 

[M. D.]

Bump,.. I was sure the information I posted together with the questions ,...would have garnered some responses..

A machine U.L. listed as one thing an an inspector/AHJ saying it is something entirely different.

 

[buddhakii]

Even though the u.l. white book lists them in seperate categories does that mean that the NEC has to recognize them as sepeate as well? I still say it's a vending machine under the NEC definition. Does the U.L. actually have a definition for vending machine, or is the vending machine and atm simply in seperate categories?

 

[M. D.]

Even though the u.l. white book lists them in seperate categories does that mean that the NEC has to recognize them as sepeate as well?

Well ,..I guess that is my point ,. if the standard for an ATM is U.L.291 and the standard for vending machines is U.L. 751,. and they are not in the same category , then the ATM is not listed as a vending machine .. so now you have an non listed machine vending???

I still say it's a vending machine under the NEC definition. Does the U.L. actually have a definition for vending machine, or is the vending machine and atm simply in seperate categories?

U.L. has a listing for vending machines and ATMs are not subject to the testing standard that applies ,.. so again they are being manufactured without the GFCI protection,.. because the standard that requires gfci protection is found in U.L. 751 and not 291 ..

The NEC FPN refers us to the standards 751 & 541 as those are the standards for vending machines.

So an AHJ could say I have a machine not listed as a vending machine doing vending... and choose not to approve it ???
This makes little sense to me.

 

[iwire]

Even though the u.l. white book lists them in seperate categories does that mean that the NEC has to recognize them as sepeate as well?

Yes.

I still say it's a vending machine under the NEC definition. Does the U.L. actually have a definition for vending machine, or is the vending machine and atm simply in seperate categories?

IMO the inspector must use the listing to determine the type of equipment to enforce the NEC.

An inspector can not call a 'florescent fixture an incandescent fixture just because they both produce light. The listing determines the type of equipment.

So I agree that an ATM is not required to have GFCI protection even though the ones I go to do indeed vend stamps.

 

[raider1]

Where does 422.51 say that all vending machines must be listed?

The problem that I see is that the NEC has defined the term "vending machine" within section 422.51.

For the purpose of this section, the term vending machine means any self-service device that dispenses products or merchandise without the necessity of replenishing the device between each vending operation and is designed to require insertion of a coin, paper currency, token, card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.

So using this definition a "redbox" would be a vending machine. Is a "redbox" listed as a "vending machine"?

Chris

 

[iwire]

Where does 422.51 say that all vending machines must be listed?

Nowhere in the NEC but if it is (and it will be) and the listing is not 'vending machine' IMO an inspector can not decide that it is a vending machine for the purposes of code enforcement.

 

[raider1]

Nowhere in the NEC but if it is (and it will be) and the listing is not 'vending machine' IMO an inspector can not decide that it is a vending machine for the purposes of code enforcement.

So for example, if a "redbox" is not listed as a vending machine (I have no idea if they are or not) then 422.51 would not apply even though it clearly meets the definition in 422.51.

Chris

 

[iwire]

So for example, if a "redbox" is not listed as a vending machine (I have no idea if they are or not) then 422.51 would not apply even though it clearly meets the definition in 422.51.

Chris

IMO no. :smile:

 

[raider1]

The problem I am having is that the NEC defines what it considers a vending machine in 422.51. If the NEC had just said "vending machines" and left it at that it would be easier to say that the item must be listed as a "vending machine".

Chris

 

[M. D.]

The problem I am having is that the NEC defines what it considers a vending machine in 422.51. If the NEC had just said "vending machines" and left it at that it would be easier to say that the item must be listed as a "vending machine".

Chris

Chris in one of my posts I asked what the date on the Machine was ,, because,.. if it was manufactured after Jan 1 ,2005 I am not obligated to install GFCI and even if I did it still does not meet the requirement in found in 422.51..

 

[raider1]

Chris in one of my posts I asked what the date on the Machine was ,, because,.. if it was manufactured after Jan 1 ,2005 I am not obligated to install GFCI and even if I did it still does not meet the requirement in found in 422.51..

Good point, so if the video dispensing machine was built prior to January 1, 2005 and is not listed as a vending machine does it need to be GFCI protected?

This is one of those code rules that to me, oversteps the authority of the NEC and into the realm of product standards.

Chris

 

[M. D.]

Good point, so if the video dispensing machine was built prior to January 1, 2005 and is not listed as a vending machine does it need to be GFCI protected?

Not In my opinion, though I'd bet it is a vending machine.

This is one of those code rules that to me, oversteps the authority of the NEC and into the realm of product standards.

Chris

It absolutely does and U.L. in fact revised the standards for vending machines.

The funny thing is they thought that by adding the definition and the FPN they were clearing up the confusion between machines that vend products and those that provide a service. They agreed with this guy.

the ROP

Many cordconnected
coin-operated machines do not vend merchandise or a product,
instead they offer a service such as clothes washers, clothes dryers, ATM
machines, ice machines (no coin needed), slot machines (some are cord-and
plug-connected; of course, you get nothing back). The intent of this proposal is
to give the Code-Making Panel some thoughts toward clarifying this section for
2008.

 

[raider1]

The funny thing is they thought that by adding the definition and the FPN they were clearing up the confusion between machines that vend products and those that provide a service. They agreed with this guy.

I agree, by adding the definition this section has really become more vague.

Chris

 

[PCN]

So for example, if a "redbox" is not listed as a vending machine (I have no idea if they are or not) then 422.51 would not apply even though it clearly meets the definition in 422.51.

Chris

The Redbox machines and Coinstar machines in our stores do come equiped with an integrated gfi. So the manufacturer considers them a vending machine.

The ATM in question was manufacured in 08.

 

[M. D.]

Then there is no way you can comply with 422.51,.. I would love for your inspector to read this thread.

 

[raider1]

The Redbox machines and Coinstar machines in our stores do come equiped with an integrated gfi. So the manufacturer considers them a vending machine.

The ATM in question was manufacured in 08.

Thats good to know, thanks.

Chris