Attic wiring and Ground questions

Merry Christmas
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tonype

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Three photos show cables supported on roof collar (aka rafter) ties. Storage, etc. This is an attic that is also floored and used for storage. This attic is in a garage - load center is on the outside wall and the cables went though the attic to get to the attached home. I'm guessing there are numerous problems (especially the collar ties are also used to store other items.

The other photo shows bare-grounding conductor connections on the outside of a junction box - I see this occassionally and always advise that a licensed electrical contractor evaluate. However, I am looking to get some more insight into why these wires were connected in this matter (thought process?) and the scoop on what type(s) of problems it now poses.

Thanks
Tony Shupenko, PE

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attic & grounds

attic & grounds

wow!
first, kudos for your statement "I see this occassionally and always advise that a licensed electrical contractor evaluate."
I don't find the pics uncommon, but it appears the contractor will have his work cut out for him.
Assuming the attic is accessible by permanent means, the romex installatio would be in violation in that cables should have protective running boards (again assuming they are not over 7 ft aff) and be stapled.
The cord running from the light fixture adapter would be of interest also.

I don't think I've ever seen the grounding trick. Not sure why it was done, unless they ran out of room in the box, which, judging by the number of cables entering, is vastly overloaded. Among other problems, their method doesn't provide a means of grounding the box.

As stated, the contractor has some work to do.
 
This house was obviously built mant years ago and has new wires added to it. What I can tell from the pictures is that the cables are not a major safety issue however they should be stapled.
Very sloppy work --- One has to worry a bit about HO uses the cables to hang things on. A running board 2x6 or 2x8 with the wires stapled to them will take care of this problem.

I am not sure about the grounds. It looks like whoever did this didn't think there was enough room in the JB to make the splice so they sliced the grounds outside the box. Very odd.... Easy fix tho. Get an electrician to add a 4"sq. extension ring to the box and get the wires inside.
 
augie47 said:
wow!
Assuming the attic is accessible by permanent means, the romex installatio would be in violation in that cables should have protective running boards (again assuming they are not over 7 ft aff) and be stapled.
The cord running from the light fixture adapter would be of interest also.
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This is a garage attic accessed from fold-down stairs - fully floored.
 
bundle

bundle

Nice pictures. That transformer needs to be mounted to non-combustible materials.(box) One problem with the ground wires outside is that the clamps are not designed for use, as well as the physical damage concern. I would worry that they would break that uncovered light bulb stuffing christmas things into the attic. (see 410.5) also, 310.15(B)(2)(A) would derate cables ampacity using running boards. Hopefully there is enough spare wire. BTW, the 7' rule only applies to attic's with permanent stairs, not a scuttle hole. Right?
 
Back in the 60's that was the typical method for those newfangled grounds - tie them together outside the box.
The cables don't appear to be running on the attic floor, so I don't see any issues with them at all. The chime transformer appears to be mounted to a 1900 box KO. The homerund appear to be supported every other cross-tie. They're either 16" oc or 24" oc either way, they're supported at least every 48", if not every 32".

What's the problem? Aside from the lack of staples on the cables entering the 1900 box, I don't see one.
 
Yeah I always hang my lights by adding a receptacle outlet into an existing light and then a cord over to a light just hanging from a rafter by the cord. What the heck I have never had an inspector yet get in the attic on a 100 degree day.

I also think that this is a neat job, really, I like all the loops and things just in case the roof leaks you will have a drip loop. As far as box fill the cover looks to be screwed tight so no problem it all fit.:roll:
 
Wow! That picture of the equipment grounds tied in around the exterior of the J-box brings an entirely new definition to "Ground Ring"...:D :D
 
jwelectric said:
The box that the fixture is mounted to is a violation of 314.27.
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You are opening up a can of worms here. Many fixtures (wall sconces) require switch boxes in order for the fixture to be mounted. Are you saying that a switch box is not allowed to support any luminaire?
 
Black Tar

Black Tar

There is no ground in Black tar wire, I know, and what I had was copper/alum clad Circa 4o' I pulled out every bit I could touch. Maybe they think they've grounded the emf, I don't know... :cool:
 
Dennis Alwon said:
You are opening up a can of worms here. Many fixtures (wall sconces) require switch boxes in order for the fixture to be mounted. Are you saying that a switch box is not allowed to support any luminaire?
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bhsrnd said:
Why is that? 314.27(A)'s exception leads me to believe it's an acceptable installation as well as 314.27(B).
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NEC said:
314.27 Outlet Boxes.
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NEC said:
(A) Boxes at Luminaire (Lighting Fixture) Outlets. Boxes used at luminaire (lighting fixture) or lampholder outlets shall be designed for the purpose. At every outlet used exclusively for lighting, the box shall be designed or installed so that a luminaire (lighting fixture) may be attached.

Exception: A wall-mounted luminaire (fixture) weighing not more than 3 kg (6 lb) shall be permitted to be supported on other boxes or plaster rings that are secured to other boxes, provided the luminaire (fixture) or its supporting yoke is secured to the box with no fewer than two No. 6 or larger screws.
(B) Maximum Luminaire (Fixture) Weight. Outlet boxes or fittings installed as required by 314.23 shall be permitted to support luminaires (lighting fixtures) weighing 23 kg (50 lb) or less. A luminaire (lighting fixture) that weighs more than 23 kg (50 lb) shall be supported independently of the outlet box unless the outlet box is listed for the weight to be supported.
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The box pictured holding the keyless is a 2X4 DEVICE box. This box is not listed for the installation of light fixtures. As outlined in the exception to use this type box or a device extension ring that accepts 6-32 screws the fixture would be required to be mounted on the wall.
Some of the keyless fixtures have the terminal screws at a right angle with the box and the screws are exposed after installation on a device box.
 
I have a problem with the cables pinched between the rafter and the collar tie in the third pic, right in front of the reindeer's nose.
 
LarryFine said:
I have a problem with the cables pinched between the rafter and the collar tie in the third pic, right in front of the reindeer's nose.
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Also, the reindeer antlers are up against the wires. In addition, the collar ties are also being used for storage of 2"x lumber.

Tony Shupenko, PE
 
While there is some stuff that is less then ideal, and a few things that probably are not code, I don't see anything that is an imminent hazard.

I don't like the ground on the outside of the box either, but its not as if it is a major hazard.

It looks like something that could be cleaned up in a few hours.

The worst thing I see is the bare bulb. And I am not all that sure it is even a code violation.
 
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