Authority having jurisdiction Industrial type applications

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JJWalecka

JJWalecka

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New England
I have been working with controls for machinery. Yes!!! It is a new monster. I love the challenge.

I was told that there is no AHJ that checks for code compliance. There are issues with security. The company that is building the machines doesn?t completely know what it is that they will be used for.

From what I understand an inspector could check were the 480 volts comes into the main panel. That is it. I understand why a company would want to keep their ideas copy written, but wouldn?t there need to be some sort of inspection. Granted most of the work is controls, computer processing and equipment. There is still some 120 volt and 480 volt branch circuits, transformers and motors.

I would appreciate any input.

Thank you,

Justin J. Walecka
 
In general the NEC does not apply to the inner wiring of machinery, no more than it applies to the inner wiring of a TV
 
Iwire,

That was my understanding. Still, shouldn't there be an authority checking things out. I was just curios what other people?s opinions were.

?Maybe, just once, someone will call me sir without adding 'you're making a scene'.?

I thought you had enough with the Mr. and Sir stuff. LOL!

Justin J. Walecka
 
Justin, I do industrial control panel design, construction, and some interconnection. I'm not an electrician, rather a field electrical engineer with electro hydraulics and motion control as a speciality. Our panels, for use in the USA, are never looked at by any authority. In past employment, some were shipped to Canada, and they do more. I've done little design and construction in the last 10 years, but we were required to list the maximum SCC that we could handle. Some customers knew what that meant, most didn't. Most did not have anything inspected unless it was new construction; substantially 100% of mine was after facility construction.

I really don't know why industrial criteria are so much looser than residential, but they seem to be. NOTE that I'm talking about 230/460/575 here; the 120V and GFCI is carefully in compliance by major facilities, and getting more so every day.

There things we do every day in our panels, such as "double-tapping" breakers, that are not acceptable in power distribution. We think nothing of running #12 THHN from a 400A MagGard breaker to a 10A fuse (and reasonably, #12 from that) We DO consider the interrupting capacity of all breakers and fuses.
 
If these are classified as industrial control panels, and the installation of the equipment involves a permit the inspector could require that the equipment have a nrtl ID, and in general comply with the following.

409.110 Marking. An industrial control panel shall be
marked with the following information that is plainly visible
after installation:
(1) Manufacturer?s name, trademark, or other descriptive
marking by which the organization responsible for the
product can be identified.
(2) Supply voltage, number of phases, frequency, and fullload
current for each incoming supply circuit. [ROP
11-12]
(3) Short-circuit current rating of the industrial control
panel based on one of the following:

Also NFPA 79 may be applicable .

90.7 Enforcement may also be considered.
 
In my area, you could have a problem. Most inspectors do not inspect the interior of any industrial panel. Having said that I do know of an instance where the inspector wanted a UL listing for a machine with 2 panels interfaced;or time for him to determine whether or not it complied with NFPA 79. It took about 90 days to get everything worked out on that one.

I might add that the inspector was only trying to cover his backside. He had little or no industrial experience.;)
 
dlhoule said:
In my area, you could have a problem. Most inspectors do not inspect the interior of any industrial panel. Having said that I do know of an instance where the inspector wanted a UL listing for a machine with 2 panels interfaced;or time for him to determine whether or not it complied with NFPA 79. It took about 90 days to get everything worked out on that one.

I might add that the inspector was only . trying to cover his backside. He had little or no industrial experience.;)
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The inspector may have been concerned with exposing the gov't body he worked for against a law suit. The inspector has the perogative of accepting equipment that has not been subjected to a nrtl, but if their is a sticker on the equipment it makes the inspectors job a lot less complicated.

I look for NRTL stickers, some contractors get upset, some expect it
 
AHJ inspections of industrial locations may be regulated by state rules.
In Washington State, there is no difference between an industrial location and any other. Many industrial locations do not have certified electricians, do not get permits/inspections due to managment ignorance or a specific desire not to. However, I know of one refinery nearby that has an yearly maintenance permit and gets an inspection from the AHJ every week.
Our AHJs require any control panel to be NRTL listed, but only if they see it.
 
I've run into a parallel situation. I've learned that to be used in an industrial setting, machinery does not need to be certified by a testing lab (UL or other). In another situation I would be in violation to provide power to equipment that is not listed or labeled. A particular site where I've worked has equipment from Japan, Germany and other countries. None of these has a listing/label. What I've learned is that the standards are different from country to country. e.g.-fla in one place may mean operating fla. Another has meant that value times 125%. Still another, I never could figure out what the numbers meant. Amazingly, the factory reps and engineers knew nothing of any value. Knowing wire size and OCPD rating is a challenge when you don't know what the numbers on the nameplate actually mean. Listing/ listing solves alot of problems.

I don't know if this has any bearing on the original thread. Sorry if I've changed the subject.
 
chuck mccarty said:
I've run into a parallel situation. I've learned that to be used in an industrial setting, machinery does not need to be certified by a testing lab (UL or other). In another situation I would be in violation to provide power to equipment that is not listed or labeled. A particular site where I've worked has equipment from Japan, Germany and other countries. None of these has a listing/label. What I've learned is that the standards are different from country to country. e.g.-fla in one place may mean operating fla. Another has meant that value times 125%. Still another, I never could figure out what the numbers meant. Amazingly, the factory reps and engineers knew nothing of any value. Knowing wire size and OCPD rating is a challenge when you don't know what the numbers on the nameplate actually mean. Listing/ listing solves alot of problems.

I don't know if this has any bearing on the original thread. Sorry if I've changed the subject.
Click to expand...

Our inspectors usually do not look at Industrial Control panels built by someone else. I refused to connect a feeder to one setup and called in the State inspector. Things went down hill from there but the changes I wanted were made. Another came with a nice UL sticker but was to big to get in the room let alone in the space allowed. Plus it did not work. Still haven?t been paid for those ?Builder requested? changes and the pretty UL sticker means nothing.
 
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