automotive ignition voltage

[Natfuelbilll]

Does the NFPA 70E cover automotive ignition voltage; and do the mechanics need to wear voltage rated gloves?

 

[iaov]

I've never seen any thing on it. Not something that is famous for starting fires or killing people. It sure does hurt though!!:smile:

 

[zog]

Does the NFPA 70E cover automotive ignition voltage; and do the mechanics need to wear voltage rated gloves?

Yes they do, 70E has nothing to do with electricians, it applies to all workplaces, in fact I developed some 70E courses for a US auto manufacturer for thier dealerships mechanics for servicing Hybrid vehicles.

 

[Natfuelbilll]

I am not asking about hybrid vehicles.

So are you saying that the mechanics need to wear Class 2 voltage rated gloves or stay 10" from the ignition wires?

 

[quogueelectric]

I am not asking about hybrid vehicles.

So are you saying that the mechanics need to wear Class 2 voltage rated gloves or stay 10" from the ignition wires?

I am not sure there are gloves that would test to 80kv which is about open circuit voltage on a high energy ignition. I used 5kv pliers on them once with a cracked plug and I got
knocked on my buttocks. I am not going anywhere near them open circuit ever again that is for sure.

 

[zog]

I am not asking about hybrid vehicles.

So are you saying that the mechanics need to wear Class 2 voltage rated gloves or stay 10" from the ignition wires?

I know you didnt ask about hybrid, that was just an adder to the Yes they do answer to your question.

As far as class 2, who knows depends on the voltages they are exposed to, not sure where you get 10' either.

 

[Natfuelbilll]

NFPA 70e Table 130.2(C) for Nominal System Voltage range of 15.1kV to 36kV row and Prohibited Approach Boundary column.

 

[K8MHZ]

Wouldn't arc flash potential (there is none) be the most considered danger in high voltage applications?

The vehicle systems are current limited. Just enough to want to make you skip that second cup of coffee and be grateful the hood liner was firmly in place but not quite enough to flick you into the afterlife.

15 to 50 kV @ 50 to 100 mA or so at 100 Hz and up.

 

[drbond24]

How big of a problem is this? Would you have to actually be holding onto the wires while someone else was cranking the ignition to get zapped? Who would do that?

I'm not a mechanic (or an electrician for that matter), but it seems a little weird. Any time I've replaced spark plugs and/or wires, I take the cables off of the battery. No battery = no shocky.

 

[Natfuelbilll]

Yes they do

What sections of 70E would apply?

Are there any requirements in any other Codes or standards that specifically apply?

 

[iwire]

How big of a problem is this?

Probably pretty low on the danger scale but that has nothing to do with OSHA compliance.

1910.333(a)(1)

"Deenergized parts." Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.


Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.


Note 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous industrial process in a chemical plant that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment.


Note 3: Work on or near deenergized parts is covered by paragraph (b) of this section.

That applies to pretty much all employees doing any job.

So it seems to me that the mechanics will have to learn LOTO and when they have to do live troubleshooting they will have to suit up.

 

[zog]

NFPA 70e Table 130.2(C) for Nominal System Voltage range of 15.1kV to 36kV row and Prohibited Approach Boundary column.

You said stay 10" away or wear gloves, they need to stay outside the RAB without gloves, you cant cross the PAB even with gloves on.

 

[Natfuelbilll]

you can't cross the PAB even with gloves on.

??

Prohibited Approach Boundary: Distance from an exposed live part within which work is considered the same as making contact with the live part. This boundary may only be crossed by a qualified person who has specific training to work on energized parts; has obtained an approved Energized Electrical Work Permit; and uses PPE appropriate for working on energized parts which are rated for the voltage and energy level involved. (Note: A permit is not required for work related to testing, troubleshooting, and voltage measuring).

 

[zog]

??

Prohibited Approach Boundary: Distance from an exposed live part within which work is considered the same as making contact with the live part. This boundary may only be crossed by a qualified person who has specific training to work on energized parts; has obtained an approved Energized Electrical Work Permit; and uses PPE appropriate for working on energized parts which are rated for the voltage and energy level involved. (Note: A permit is not required for work related to testing, troubleshooting, and voltage measuring).

Common misconception in the old standard, the required training for crossing the PAB is detailed training that linemen get, it is a certification and is commonly refered to as bare hand work, the 2009 70E has a clearer explanation to this.

 

[George Stolz]

How big of a problem is this? Would you have to actually be holding onto the wires while someone else was cranking the ignition to get zapped? Who would do that?

I'm not a mechanic (or an electrician for that matter), but it seems a little weird. Any time I've replaced spark plugs and/or wires, I take the cables off of the battery. No battery = no shocky.

I'm not a mechanic either, but I work on cars every now and then.

One way of checking for a dead cylinder (a cylinder doing less or no work when the engine is running than another) is to pull spark plug wires one by one until you find a cylinder that doesn't change how the engine idles. When you unplug a good cylinder, then the engine starts idling roughly. When you unplug a spark plug and there's no appreciable change in idle, it's an indicator that maybe that cylinder has a problem.

Sometimes, you will get a nice zap from the spark plug wire while doing this, it's truly a transcendent experience - enough so that you generally transcend into the hood of the car with your head.

If that doesn't work, try sticking a bender in the engine compartment. That usually does the trick.

 

[Natfuelbilll]

Common misconception in the old standard, the required training for crossing the PAB is detailed training that linemen get, it is a certification and is commonly refered to as bare hand work, the 2009 70E has a clearer explanation to this.

Could I trouble you to list the subject text, or section?

So I think you are saying even after shock/arc/ppe/hazardanalysis/ewp/jobsafety meeting/...ad nauseum..http://forums.mikeholt.com/images/smilies/confused.gif. that touching the energized conductor, or passing through the PAB, is still not in accordance with 70E?

 

[zog]

So I think you are saying even after shock/arc/ppe/hazardanalysis/ewp/jobsafety meeting/...ad nauseum..http://forums.mikeholt.com/images/smilies/confused.gif. that touching the energized conductor, or passing through the PAB, is still not in accordance with 70E?

No, I am saying that the 70E applies to employees in the workplace working on or near exposed energized parts, dosent matter if they are mechanics, electricians, or janitors, it all applies.

Not sure what you are getting at here, maybe you should read the standard and get some quality training to clear some things up.

 

[Natfuelbilll]

Zog and I are getting off the OP.

...

Sometimes, you will get a nice zap from the spark plug wire ....

George more clearly wrote what I am trying to understand....


Does 70E or some other Code prohibit touching the insulated spark plug wire - with, or without, voltage rated gloves?

 

[Natfuelbilll]

Does 70E prohibit touching the insulated spark plug wire - with, or without, voltage rated gloves?

Wait a minute - the actual conductor remains insulated.

 

[LarryFine]

Wait a minute - the actual conductor remains insulated.

That wouldn't make any difference to me; I get shocked if I look at spark-plug wires the wrong way.