Never knew there was a difference.
Back stabbed devices
- Thread starter jmellc
- Start date
- Status
Never knew there was a difference.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Such knowledge is forbidden.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
If the neutral is part of MWBC and is in fact the shared portion of the circuit it causes voltage issues which often are very noticeable. If either conductor of a 2 wire circuit fails the load just simply does not operate, and is not subjected to possible voltage extremes.
Otherwise it is not really any more or less prone to failure. I'm guessing I have seen nearly as many neutral connections fail as ungrounded connections (for two wire circuits anyway, for 3 phase 4 wire circuits there 3 times as many ungrounded that can possibly fail).
patriot
Member
- Location
- Chapmansboro,Tn.
Stabins should be outlawed. How much time do you really save by using them? That being said, would you use them if you were wiring up your own house?
I know, here comes the comments from all the buisness owners,"its my money we're talking about,your not the one whos buying the material." I've seen an intance where my brother in law called me to come look at a plug that caught on fire due to the use of a stabin. Thank god it did'nt happen when he, his wife and three children were sleeping.
Bottom line they are not safe and probably the cuase of morer fires, maybe even deaths due to fire than we might know of.
I know, here comes the comments from all the buisness owners,"its my money we're talking about,your not the one whos buying the material." I've seen an intance where my brother in law called me to come look at a plug that caught on fire due to the use of a stabin. Thank god it did'nt happen when he, his wife and three children were sleeping.
Bottom line they are not safe and probably the cuase of morer fires, maybe even deaths due to fire than we might know of.
If you really feel that way, submit a proposal to the NFPA, along with your documentation.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
You're right as usual Bob. I wasn't thinking "out of the box" when I made that statement. I was just trying to make a point. I hate this stupid wiring method so much that words seem to fly out of my mouth before I think. Come to think of it, I'd make a great politician.
- Location
- Massachusetts
OK, here is a picture of a possible fire starting due to a wirenut, should we also ban wirenuts?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Happens to most of us, I know it does for me.
Come to think of it, I'd make a great politician.
:grin:
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
And go to what ? Split bolt bugs ?
IMHO, if you twist two solid wires together and screw on a wire nut that's a more secure and safer connection than a back-stab in a receptacle would be. Can you get a loose connection either way ? Yes, but the wire nut is the better bet, hands down. BTW, I think you're mixing apples and oranges
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Any connection is subject to overheating if the connection should fail.
That is one reason why splices and terminations in general are supposed to be within some type of enclosure. If the connection should fail it is within the enclosure and away from nearby combustibles. It is also a good reason to require a minimum length of free conductor at enclosures where the conductor is terminated. If you happen to have a conection go bad like, it is usually only 2 or 3 inches of conductor at the most that melts. BTW if you cut that off so it is short and splice onto it - the next time (if it should happen again) the heated portion the conductor may just extend outside of the box because it is short.
That is one reason why splices and terminations in general are supposed to be within some type of enclosure. If the connection should fail it is within the enclosure and away from nearby combustibles. It is also a good reason to require a minimum length of free conductor at enclosures where the conductor is terminated. If you happen to have a conection go bad like, it is usually only 2 or 3 inches of conductor at the most that melts. BTW if you cut that off so it is short and splice onto it - the next time (if it should happen again) the heated portion the conductor may just extend outside of the box because it is short.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
My admittedly unscientific experience: Lots of failed back-stabs, some failed wire nuts, maybe one failed back-entry screw clamp, no failed wagos, no failed looped screws.
Why back-stabs fail and Wagos do not is a mystery to me. It suggests that the issue is not one of method as much as the quality of manufacture.
Let me let you all in on a little secret .... in the UL testing, devices have the test loads applied for only a brief period, and under ideal conditions. The 'dirty little secret' is that damn few devices can handle the full load for an extended period- and that such loading accellerates other factors, like corrosion, that lead to device failure.
When a manufacturer makes a device that just barely passes the UL tests, he's gambling that in actual use the device will never be fully loaded. Considering the way we design household convenience circuits - without any consideration as to the actual loads - it's a pretty safe bet.
Look at the commercial part of our trade, and you will find all manner of customers who want us to use better devices. The reason is simple: they are only having us put in minimal outlets for known loads. If they want a 20-amp circuit rather than a 15, it's because the circuit WILL be supplying more than 15 amps. Plus, with business being business, it's in their interest that the circuit be used as much as possible.
You get what you pay for. In this example, there IS a difference between a fifty-cent device and a $15 one- even if the nominal ratings are identical.
Back-stabs are legal, and usually 'good enough' .... but claiming they're as good as anything else is like claiming a Porsche and a Yugo are the same.
Why back-stabs fail and Wagos do not is a mystery to me. It suggests that the issue is not one of method as much as the quality of manufacture.
Let me let you all in on a little secret .... in the UL testing, devices have the test loads applied for only a brief period, and under ideal conditions. The 'dirty little secret' is that damn few devices can handle the full load for an extended period- and that such loading accellerates other factors, like corrosion, that lead to device failure.
When a manufacturer makes a device that just barely passes the UL tests, he's gambling that in actual use the device will never be fully loaded. Considering the way we design household convenience circuits - without any consideration as to the actual loads - it's a pretty safe bet.
Look at the commercial part of our trade, and you will find all manner of customers who want us to use better devices. The reason is simple: they are only having us put in minimal outlets for known loads. If they want a 20-amp circuit rather than a 15, it's because the circuit WILL be supplying more than 15 amps. Plus, with business being business, it's in their interest that the circuit be used as much as possible.
You get what you pay for. In this example, there IS a difference between a fifty-cent device and a $15 one- even if the nominal ratings are identical.
Back-stabs are legal, and usually 'good enough' .... but claiming they're as good as anything else is like claiming a Porsche and a Yugo are the same.
I don't care for the back stabbed devices either, but mostly because they are found on the cheapest junk you can buy. The $.50 receptacles are just worthless regardless of connection method. The insulating portion of the receptacles is thin and brittle and easily damaged. Having said that, my 1975 house was wired with them and I have never had a problem, unless I try to remove one of the wires which usually results in a replacement receptacle. I have seen a few failures elsewhere, but not enough to be alarmed. As stated by others, every connector can fail if not installed properly.
jimport
Senior Member
- Location
- Outside Baltimore Maryland
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
John, there is quite a bit of difference in the amount of contact area in the Wago or Ideal push-in than the backstab. The Ideal uses a flat contact area that touches the entire stripped length of the conductor vs an edge meeting the rounded surface of the conductor. I suspect this has a lot to deal with the ability to be more reliable.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Not good enough, all things associated with electricity have the possibility of being dangerous; therefore, the only way to make the world safe is to ban electricity itself.:grin:
I did that: they banned me!
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
OK, here is a picture of a possible fire starting due to a wirenut, should we also ban wirenuts?
Yes and non torque screw drivers, nails that are longer than 1 1/2", and hammers, and screw guns until they come up with an automatic torque setting so guys quit stripping screws and I'll think of a bunch of other stuff, later.
360Youth
Senior Member
- Location
- Newport, NC
I am in favor of ban on back stabbing if for no other reason than to end these threads.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
That falls into the same category as jumbo shrimp and military intelligence.... I'd make a great politician.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I do not like the stabin's either. But I to have made my share of money on service calls. Someone mentioned that they should not be allowed. It kind of reminds me of the controversey on the purple wirenuts used for copper to aluminum. They are U.L. listed but go to the consumer product safety commisions web site and they are totally against there use. Go figure.
ishium 80439
Senior Member
OK, here is a picture of a possible fire starting due to a wirenut, should we also ban wirenuts?
I've been working overseas for the past several months and have been working with some Brits. They have done exactly that. They have not used wire nuts since around the early '70s. I'm having a hard time finding great statistics, but from what I can find the UK has less electrical fires per year than the US. Obviously there are other differences in our systems but thought it was interesting when I found that out.
- Status