Back-stabbing devices

[celtic]

okay done with meetings...lets see you can use a 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp circuit which would have a 20 amp breaker..so at 16 amps you are now over the maximum rating of the outlet (which is back stabbed)by 6-1/2% now if you go to 18 amps you are almost 20% over the rating of the outlet and yet you have not reached the trip point of the circuit breaker..But the spring loaded holding mechanism is now 20% over its rating and now starts deterioration..Now you can see why it does not use the OCPD..

The flaw in your logic is the 20A ckt.
Back stabs do not fit on #12's...only #14's

Play again?

 

[cschmid]

hmm that is interesting then why do I find them on 20 amp circuits must definitely be in violation all the way around..I guess I have never noticed that before but I do not use that feature anyway..

 

[growler]

hmm that is interesting then why do I find them on 20 amp circuits must definitely be in violation all the way around..I guess I have never noticed that before but I do not use that feature anyway..

It's legal to use the receptacle on a 20 Amp circuit but it will not back stab so the terminals must be used. If I use those cheap receptacles then I pig tail.

As peter D said they are good enough for most residential general use receptacles. The weak spot is the back stab it's self. If properly installed they last for years. Most receptacles in a house are rarely used.

 

[480sparky]

okay done with meetings...lets see you can use a 15 amp outlet on a 20 amp circuit which would have a 20 amp breaker..so at 16 amps you are now over the maximum rating of the outlet (which is back stabbed)by 6-1/2% now if you go to 18 amps you are almost 20% over the rating of the outlet and yet you have not reached the trip point of the circuit breaker..But the spring loaded holding mechanism is now 20% over its rating and now starts deterioration..Now you can see why it does not use the OCPD..

Let me throw this observation into the mix..... Are you required to pigtail a 20a circuit for a 15a receptacle?

If you put a 15a recep on a 20a circuit, and don't pigtail, then the terminals would need to be rated 20a in order to feed the 20a downstream. So if you use the back-stabs instead (same recep on same 20a circuit), would it not stand to reason the back-stabs are rated for 20a as well?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

hmm that is interesting then why do I find them on 20 amp circuits must definitely be in violation all the way around..I guess I have never noticed that before but I do not use that feature anyway..

The old receptacles (I am not sure when it changed- maybe 10 years ago) accepted #12 wire in the back. The newer ones will only accept 14 wire.

 

[badabing]

I'm a backstabber, and I admit it. I've done tons of houses each year and have never had a call back due to a issue with the wires falling out (possibly not being connected, but not falling out). I do believe the problem with them is typically going to be with the original installer not installing it correctly, not getting the wire in far enough for it to grab onto it. If that's not done, then yes, it will fall out probably. Same would probably go for someone who just wraps a wire around a screw and doesn't screw it down.. Heck! Most new recess lights come with quick stab connectors, do you cut the ends off and wire nut them???!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I'm a backstabber, and I admit it. Most new recess lights come with quick stab connectors, do you cut the ends off and wire nut them???!

I actually thought about cutting those connectors off but then I decided that once connected they do not get the abuse of a receptacle that has vacuums and other appliances being put in and out a hundred times.

I don't think you can compare the two installations, although time will tell on the cans.

 

[badabing]

I actually thought about cutting those connectors off but then I decided that once connected they do not get the abuse of a receptacle that has vacuums and other appliances being put in and out a hundred times.

I don't think you can compare the two installations, although time will tell on the cans.

what about when the cans are installed on the first floor, with a kids bedroom right above it?? They don't exactly walk gently on the floors, jumping, running, and everything shaking the floor (ceiling of the kitchen or so) And that's vibrations... Possibly more so then a backstabbed plug since kids don't just jump for 10min then unplug and wind down

 

[480sparky]

I actually thought about cutting those connectors off but then I decided that once connected they do not get the abuse of a receptacle that has vacuums and other appliances being put in and out a hundred times.

I don't think you can compare the two installations, although time will tell on the cans.

Several years ago, I installed 78 cans lights (Halo) with Wagos in them. I thought, "Wow, what a time-saver!"

When I went back to trim, I spent a day and a half pulling cans out and tacking down poor connections. I still install Halos, but I cut the Wagos out and toss 'em. Say what you want about them, but I can cut them out of dozens of cans in less than 30 minutes. But to waste 12 hours on them wasn't in my bid.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

When I went back to trim, I spent a day and a half pulling cans out and tacking down poor connections. I still install Halos, but I cut the Wagos out and toss 'em. Say what you want about them, but I can cut them out of dozens of cans in less than 30 minutes. But to waste 12 hours on them wasn't in my bid.

I have found that the factory ends aren't always seated well in the connector. I make sure I pull on every one and then insert my wire. I have not had a problem. We'll see how long that lasts.

 

[stickboy1375]

I myself am going to wait for a problem before I start cutting out WAGO's. On the other hand I only use JUNO Recess so guess it will be a long wait since JUNO does not use wago's... Hmmm wonder why?

 

[Cavie]

I'm a backstabber, and I admit it. I've done tons of houses each year and have never had a call back due to a issue with the wires falling out (possibly not being connected, but not falling out). I do believe the problem with them is typically going to be with the original installer not installing it correctly, not getting the wire in far enough for it to grab onto it. If that's not done, then yes, it will fall out probably. Same would probably go for someone who just wraps a wire around a screw and doesn't screw it down.. Heck! Most new recess lights come with quick stab connectors, do you cut the ends off and wire nut them???!

I live in a house that was back stabbed. Anybody who does this should be back stabbed. I have changed out all but 2 in my house. One behind the china cabinet and one behind the computer desk. EVERY receptical I changed, at least 1 wire fell out as I pulled the recp out of the wall. I suspect the one behind the computer desk is the reason for the light flicker in the livingroom but I'm just too lazy to move the VERY big desk to change it. That reason is wearing very thin with the wife.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Peter,

You mostly work commercial/industrial, right? I agree, a residential grade receptacle has no place in those environments.

But for us residential guys, it doesn't make much sense to be installing CR-20's, 5362's, etc in a spec house.

They are junk and shouldn't be used anywhere...in many cases the receptacles in a house kitchen or bathroom take more use than those in a commercial or industrial occupancy. Now I understand, that if you are bidding the job you have to use the low quality stuff to remain competitive...one of the reasons I don't do resi work.
Don

 

[peter d]

Peter,

They are junk and shouldn't be used anywhere...

They are fine in bedrooms, living rooms, dining rooms, and other places of infrequent receptacle use.

The approach I use is a "hybrid' system. I put residential grade receptacles in the areas I just mentioned, and basic CR-15's/BR-15's in the kitchens, bathrooms, garage, workshop and other "heavy use" areas. This is assuming the budget will allow it.
.

 

[parttimer]

Pigtailing for quality

Pigtailing for quality

Someone mentioned that they backstab because of the cold and others because they want to save $$$ at installation.

I have been in quality assurance for years. THere is what is called the 6 sigma level of quality. If each of us worked to this level there would still be a minimum .3% failure rate of installations, poor contact, untightened nuts, etc. (3 connections in 1000).

Pigtailing in advance allows two benefits. The first is to work in a comfortable position (and warm place) and to be able to set up an assembly line. The second is the speed of assembly and installation at the box. Please note that any wire not tightened will probably fall out while you turn the wirenut.

Try it sometime, all the contractors I have worked for have never said a thing about me pigtailing devices in advance (this includes 2X4 lighting with MC cable before raising it). I have never had a failure that I know of either. This also gives good use to drops (trims) from runs.

 

[walkerj]

I have found that the factory ends aren't always seated well in the connector. I make sure I pull on every one and then insert my wire. I have not had a problem. We'll see how long that lasts.

We use the one's wth the wago's and anytime i find a loose connection, it is the factory wire

 

[don_resqcapt19]

parttimer,

THere is what is called the 6 sigma level of quality. If each of us worked to this level there would still be a minimum .3% failure rate of installations, poor contact, untightened nuts, etc. (3 connections in 1000).

I believe six sigma would be ~3.4 defects per 1,000,000 installations, not 3 per 1000 installations.
Don

 

[360Youth]

Pigtailing in advance allows two benefits. The first is to work in a comfortable position (and warm place) and to be able to set up an assembly line. The second is the speed of assembly and installation at the box. Please note that any wire not tightened will probably fall out while you turn the wirenut.

It may save time on trim, but adds time to rough. If it takes x-time to pigtail, the costs are there no matter when the work is done. That being said, it is better to do ahead of time because the final is when the clock is ticking fastest most of the time.

 

[ItsHot]

push connectors

push connectors

Is a connector a device?
I have been trying the "new" push-on connectors to replace wire nuts. It's a trial run but so far I like them.

Hey Twoskins, I see how this thread(back-stabbing) raises the question on push connectors. I had the same question on another thread( insert wire terminals) I use these connectors in plug-mold and light fixtures. They are a great space saver.To answer your question, I am not sure if wire connectors are devices. I use wagos, but at the same time have spoken against back stabbing receptacles????? Like I was saying in a thread about 1/2 inch emt, "if they didn't want you using it,why do they make it"?

 

[brantmacga]

They are junk and shouldn't be used anywhere...

Oh come on Don. Are you on the 12-2 bandwagon as well?? I consider myself to be a pretty tough quality control person, and have no faults w/ the 15A residential grade receptacles. I trust them in my own house, why not somebody else's? It takes an assload of abuse to burn one up.