Backstabbing and AFCI's

[Guest]

Before a workplace injury I was a service electrician and a small electrical contractor (licensed). Because of my experience I will NEVER ever backstab another switch or receptacle! Most of my service work was done in the mid-90's. Most of the dwellings were built in the early 70's. This meant the devices (receptacles & switches) were about 25-years old. They were all "BACKSTABBED". They were all arcing to some degree. Some arced to the point of circuit or device failure. They never tripped the circuit breakers. Many had little white hot fires burning within the devices. I am now a SIDEWIRING fool! Everything I do is box made-up, pigtailed and sidewired! Due to my injury I am out of the trades, but I am going to re-enter it as a hands-off contractor. I will be the brains and I will hire the necessary brainy/brawny electricians to do the physical work for me. I feel that BACKSTABBING should be ILLEGAL! It does not work over time. The little flat spring that keeps the wire in place and makes the electrical contact: Think about it: Only about 2-molecules of metal on the spring contact the round conductor. With on & off cycles, heat cycles, etc. the connection starts to arc. It is a ridiculous system! It is dangerous! It needs to be banned!

I bought a Broan heat/vent/light/night-light for my own bathroom last week. I was ASTONISHED that the 4-device toggle switch for this unit REQUIRES that the 1500 watt heater be BACKSTABBED! There is no way to side-wire the heater switch! There are only pigtails for the light and night-light on the switch unit. The pigtails are only rated at 3-amps! The rest is all backstabbed! Yuk!

How long do you think it will take for backstabbed devices to start tripping the AFCI breakers?

How do you feel about backstabbing?

Do you box make-up your neutrals and grounds, or do you rely on backstabbing and using the device as a wire nut? You know that's wrong but I would like to hear about your methods.

I know many of you box make-up and pigtail your grounds and neutrals, but in the field I had to undo a lot of shoddy work. I would add any form backstabbing to the list of shoddy work. It may be NEC approved, but that could only be through strong lobbying by Leviton, etc. It does not hold up!

I hope this AFCI breaker works out. It is a fabulous concept. It's going to be hard to troubleshoot the faults, and there will be a learning curve, but AFCI is the future.

Sorry for the long post. I look forward to your comments about AFCI, backstabbing, and box made-up neutrals/grounds and pigtails. :roll:

 

[maniacwhiz]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

I also think backstabbing ought to be banned.

Levition invented this method, did they not? I have an mint, unused 1950's Leviton receptacle. "Quickwire" was its name. It is the only oldest receptacle I have run into that has the backstabbing method.

My house was built in 1981, and ALL of the switches and receptacles were backstabbed! And to top it off, they were paired up with the cheapest Levition devices available in 1981. I bought spec-grade Cooper devices, I think CR series, where the side-wiring was the only way to attach the devices to the wires. They are pigtailed where necessary.

Nothing bad happened in the 20 years they were installed, but I experienced dimming and/or flickering when I plug in tools or the iron. Not anymore.

I sleep much better now.

 

[tom baker]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

For years electricians would comlain that backstabbing was a poor method, the answer would be the devices are Listed. Then about 6 years ago the listing was changed so only 14 AWG can be backstabbed. What does that say to you?

 

[iceman2610]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

Glad to see I am not the only electrician in the field who waste their time sidewiring and pigtailing. I have never liked or used the backstabbing available on the devices. I reciently purchased some recessed can light - I couldn't believe my eyes

 

[Guest]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

I still cannot believe that 4-function switch (Model #97014169 white) that came with my brand-new Broan/Nutone Heat/Fan/Light/Night-Light model #732 (Designer Series) is a backstabbed switch. The light portion is pigtailed, but the heat/fan portion is backstabbed. It calls for a 20-amp circuit and 12AWG conductors. This is contrary to the post above about 14AWG being the maximum for back-stabbing (back-wiring).

If one had an electrical service company one could wrap a whole company around these retrofit services:

1. Upgrading existing devices from back-wiring to side-wiring.
2. Proper interconnection of the neutral conductor (many neutrals are interconnected at the device instead of being box made-up).
3. Dealing with aluminum NM. Making sure it terminates in AL/CU devices or making sure that other termination methods are used to make the transition from AL to CU.
4. Replacing old circuit breakers that have excessive voltage drop. Mfg. specs say that any circuit breaker with a voltage drop in excess of .030 is faulty and is a fire hazard.

You could have a thriving service operation just based on 1-2-3-4 and nothing else.

 

[bthielen]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

I am an electrical designer and am not a licensed electrcian but in the process of rewiring my own home, I too recognized the importance of wrapping the wire around the terminal screws rather than using the backstabbing available. I know my inspector definitely appreciated it. He commented that he finds too often that there is some arcing and burning when these connections are used. My experience has taught me to be a little cautious about using connections that rely on spring tension to maintain a contact. All too often we have problems with ribbon cable and other multi-conductor cable connections, unless a terminal screw is involved.

I would definitely support a change in the code to not allow the use. I think any good electrician would avoid it.

Something to consider.
For the do-it-yourselfer that doesn't know the code and doesn't request inspection, it encourages overfilling the device boxes because it provides additional terminal points. We all know how common this is!

Bob

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

awwt,

How long do you think it will take for backstabbed devices to start tripping the AFCI breakers?

Actually it will take some time. A problem with a back stabbed connection is a high resistance fault or a series fault. AFCIs do not directly detect these types of faults. They detect them when the original fault progresses to a line to grounded conductor arc (parallel arcing fault) or when the original fault progresses to a line to grounding conductor or grounded conductor fault and the internal ground fault detection circuit kills the power.
Don

 

[Guest]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
awwt,

How long do you think it will take for backstabbed devices to start tripping the AFCI breakers?

A problem with a back stabbed connection is a high resistance fault or a series fault. AFCIs do not directly detect these types of faults. They detect them when the original fault progresses to a line to grounded conductor arc (parallel arcing fault) <snip>

I'm still not picturing why an AFCI breaker would fail to detect an arcing backstabbed (back-wired; speed-wired; quick-wired) device.

Here's what Siemens says:

An arcing fault is an unintentional discharge of electricity in a circuit that may occur as a series and/or a parallel fault.

Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters

 

[rong111]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

my home was built in 87. everything is backstabed. i am going to side wire it. first i am taking care of the much more serious electrical problems around here. luckily it is all pigtailed. but pigtailing will only prevent failure further down the branch, not a fire. i wish this would be outlawed already. yeah guys can make money fixing it, but they also have better jobs to do. as for using the recepts as a terminal for other wires i hope that is not legal. luckily nothing has ever failed in my own home. what amazes me is that the same companys pushing afci are also pushing quickwire recepts! coincedence or conspiracy?
but please do not mistake a WAGO for a backstab device. i use these(rarely) and they work a little differently. the ideal ones are backstab but not the wagos.

ron g.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

awwt,
When you dig deep in the technical details, you will find that the AFCI manufacturers say that series arcing faults do not even really exist. They also say that a poor connection is a high resistance connection, not an arcing fualt. The AFCI will open the circuit for these types of fualts, only when enough damage is done so that the fault progresses to a line to neutral fault or to a ground fault. These details are burried deep in the technical information and not easy to find. Do a serch in the archives of this forum and the forum at Electrical Contractor Network for some very long and detailed threads on the subject of AFCIs.
Don

[ September 02, 2003, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]

 

[waymur]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

YES I AGREE WITH ALL OF YOU ABOUT THE STABLOCKS, WE USED THEM IN A NEW 14 STORY ADDITION TO THE HILTON. THEY HAD THE PREASSEMBLED, PREWIRED FEEDERS AND SWITCH CONDUCTORS. THEY WERE LOOSE FITTING AND NORMALLY NOT WIRED RIGHT, BUT THEY ALSO USED THE STABLOCK BLOCKS AND WITH THE STABLOCK DEVICES.IN MY EYES FOR THE SUPPOSELY 5 MANHOURS IT WAS TO SAVE PER ROOM, WILL BE QUITE SMALL TO THE SERVICE HOURS THEY WILL NEED IN THE END........
KEEP TRYING TO RUSH GOOD WORKMANSHIP.......... BUT IT WILL BITE YOU IN THE A____

 

[iwire]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

I have a different attitude then most of these responses.

While I do not use the quick wire/back stab terminals, I see no reason for the NEC to due away with them.

This issue IMO is more correctly dealt with by job specifications, or electricians and companies that care about quality.

Please note the following from the front of the NEC.

(my bolding.)

90.1(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance will result in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

To me that says it all, the NEC is not there to guarantee a quality job just a safe job, two entirely different issues.

I will go out on a limb here and say that if these poor terminals where/are causing fires the listing would be removed.

I have lived in places wired throughout with backstabed devices (I changed them to pigtail connections) and they seemed to cause all the things you would expect from poor connections.

My point is you get what you pay for, from devices to electrical contractors.

We charge a premium rate for a quality job, if someone wants the low ball guy they get what they pay for, they can call us to fix it later.

 

[iceman2610]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

iwire, I disagree with you on this matter. I feel that the NEC should abolish backstabbing devices. It is true that the NEC maintains only minimum standards, but allowing backstabbing is far less than minimum standards from my expierences. Backstabbing is a cheap and cheasy way to increase profits and it sacrifices quality and safety. Yes, arc-faults should detect these faults, but should we rely on these new products to catch a fault when we can take small measures to prevent the fault to begin with????
Not trying to be argumentive, just stating my feelings on this matter.
Does anyone else feel the same as I?? or am I on a solo venture???

 

[roger]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

Well, I have backstabbed 70% of the receptacles in my house. These are general purpose 15 amp circuit receptacles that may see a connected load of 2 amps in it's glory.

In a known heavy load discretion should come to play.

Roger

 

[iwire]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

Originally posted by iceman2610:
Not trying to be argumentive, just stating my feelings on this matter.
Does anyone else feel the same as I?? or am I on a solo venture???

I hear you, we just feel different about this, and I would really doubt you are solo on your feelings.

I might be mistaken but I do not believe the NEC choses or specifies products, the NEC requires certain electric equipment to be listed.

If you do not think that backstabed devices are safe you will have to get the testing labs to pull the listing.

Can you provide info of when these have caused fires?

 

[bthielen]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

IWIRE,

One of the explanations presented to me was that when one pushes the receptacle back into the device box, force is applied to the wire toward the receptacle. Since the wire is able to be pushed in easily and the best contact is made when the wire is not experiencing a force inward, it only stands to reason that the wire connection is very likely less than desired. The inspector that told me this also indicated that he has seen first-hand, charred and burned receptacles where backstabbing was used.

Also, the argument that arc-fault devices provide insurance to detect a problem of this nature could be summed up by another unrelated situation I had one time. I had visited a shopping mall one day when they were having this promotional carnival event. Children were given darts and allowed to throw them at balloons to win prizes. I noticed that the darts were quite dull and very often bounced off the balloons rather than popping them. I suggested this activity is too dangerous for this reason. The response I received was "That's why we have insurance!" Insurance can't replace an eye any more than an arc-fault detection device could replace a life or a home.

There seems to exist a real potential for intermittent connection problems even if one believes they aren't capable of causing a fire. While it may seem that this adds a certain level of job security, electricians that have to constantly return to troubleshoot their work will develope a reputation for poor quality and this could actually lower the job security in the long haul. Being a home-owner, when I hire someone to do a job for me I would rather pay the extra up front for high quality service rather than repay and repay and repay...

Bob

 

[iwire]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

Bob you make some good points, I agree that most times using backstabs is a low quality job.

I am not looking for job security, the jobs I work on are all spec grade outlets and the company I work for requires me to pigtail them also.

The thing is when a person selects the lowest bidder and they do not provide any specifications, they should expect low quality.

If you want backstabs eliminated you will have to get the listing pulled, that has nothing to do with the NEC.

While you are at it you should try to get the listing removed from the $0.35 outlets that are available also. Even when you wire these with the screws you can have all the same problems that backstabed outlets have.

My point is there will always be junk electrical equipment available, it is up to the customer to chose an electrician that will not use this junk.

JMO, Bob

 

[Guest]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

Guys and Gals that only do new construction may have to be in the trades for many years before they will see a backstab device failure. It's going to take years for the problem to show up. Backstabbing is like a ticking time bomb. I did a lot of new construction and remodeling up until 1994 when I got an employment deal that I could not refuse. As a SERVICE electrician I saw a lot of bad stuff. We usually got called in when a device had failed and need IMMEDIATE attention. It could be a burning backstabbed device, or a failed backstabbed device. Somtimes backstabs just let go and go dead. Many times a backstabbed device will arc and burn for quite some time. They burn a white hot flame with no smoke or obvious odor. When you depower them and get up close they do emit a foul odor. It is a sight to see!

If you have never done service or if you are "new" in the trades you may not have personally witnessed a flaming or dead backstabbed device. To those of us that have-- we have a new religion! We have seen the light! Meaning the white hot flame of failure. Same thing goes for circuit breakers on their way out-- they burn white-hot internally until they fail. That's when Baskin Robbin's calls in the emergency guy/gal for a quick fix of their faulty breaker or backstabbed device while their ice cream sits there getting softy.

[ September 04, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[rong111]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

well this thread has certainly come at a rather opertune time. i can now tell you all first hand that backstab recepts are dangerous. i had the first electrical fire in my home this morning! due solely to a backstab device.

the conection on the backstab outlet in my bathroom failed this morning. go figure a 1500 watt resistive load from a hairdryer would casue this mediocre device to fail. well being in a bathroom for the last 17 years meant the box was full of hair,dust etc. when the conection was severed i did not depower the circuit to trouble shoot it.(do electricians ever?). the screws on this 35 cent outlet were not screwed down! screw touched the box causing a ground fault which of course tripped the gfci that was on a run through in the adjacent bathroom. BUT! not before the resulting spark no matter how small it may have been ignited the wad of crud in the box. well, i quickly extinguished this. only loss is the outlet.
the only reason i am sharing this is because i think backstabing is just the tip of the ice berg.
it is just one facet of shoddy workmanship that is available to homeowners. there is no excuse for horrible workmanship. there were several different poor practices that lead to the ignition of the contents of my box. one of them being my own failure to depower the circuit. so i am also guilty here. anyways the contractors that are just out to undercut us all by using poor workmanship are the real threat to safety. remember the very same outlets that have backstabs also have screws. in my case left loose to add insult to injury. furthermore an afci should not be expected to compensate for poor workmanship. heck, who knows if these unscrupulous contractors even installed the afci properly so it will work if needed!

ron g.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Backstabbing and AFCI's

Rong111

well being in a bathroom for the last 17 years meant the box was full of hair,dust etc.

You left out the most important Cause.
WATER,Moisture,steam. Etc....
moisture is the biggest cause of device failure

This is why I'm a firm beliver in No-Lox anti-oxident compound. It stops the moisture.