Backstabbing at your home

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goldstar said:
Usually when you back-stab a light switch the load at the switch is limited to that particular lighting load. At least you know what the load is when you make that connection. When you back-stab receptacles you really don't know what the loads may be at any given receptacle. The first receptacle on the run is taking the heat for everything downstream of it. It's the feed-thru feature while using the back-stab that's the problem.
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I don't follow the logic.

It seems you're ok with the backstab of a switch causing a fire, but not ok with a receptacle backstab causing a fire ??

So long as the fire at the switch doesn't make the rest of the circuit stop working?
 
James L said:
I don't follow the logic.

It seems you're ok with the backstab of a switch causing a fire, but not ok with a receptacle backstab causing a fire ??

So long as the fire at the switch doesn't make the rest of the circuit stop working?
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A switch in a dwelling generally switches very little current. With CFLs and LEDs taking over even less current.

The backstabs do not seem to fail with small loads.

On the other hand you can never predict how much current is flowing through a receptacle circuit. More current, more heat, more likely a failure.
 
I don't backstab anywhere else and will never do it in my home either. Yes, I too have seen some 30+ year connections that held up but seldom on heavy loads. I have seen far more burned devices that were stabbed than those that were screwed. ! exception is multiple wires on a screw. I have seen those mess up a lot.

I also pigtail unless using a GFCI for downline protection.
 
James L said:
I don't follow the logic.

It seems you're ok with the backstab of a switch causing a fire, but not ok with a receptacle backstab causing a fire ??

So long as the fire at the switch doesn't make the rest of the circuit stop working?
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The switch doesn't have back stab connections that "feed thru" like a receptacle does either. The only thing that "feeds thru" is the switched section of the circuit, so there is only a heavy load feeding through if the switched load is a heavy load.

I won't say I have never seen a failed termination at a switch, be it screw terminal, pressure plate, backstab.. but pretty certain I have seen more of those failures at receptacles.
 
jmellc said:
I don't backstab anywhere else and will never do it in my home either. Yes, I too have seen some 30+ year connections that held up but seldom on heavy loads. I have seen far more burned devices that were stabbed than those that were screwed. ! exception is multiple wires on a screw. I have seen those mess up a lot.

I also pigtail unless using a GFCI for downline protection.
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Agreed

iwire said:
A switch in a dwelling generally switches very little current. With CFLs and LEDs taking over even less current.

The backstabs do not seem to fail with small loads.

On the other hand you can never predict how much current is flowing through a receptacle circuit. More current, more heat, more likely a failure.
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Agreed.

Those backstabers keep me in biz during the slow non construction months.
 
James L said:
That's sort of subjective and relative, though.

I've pulled receps and switches out of the wall, finding the backstabbed wires pulled out. But I've also pulled them out to find screws are loose, too.

Do those loose screws always indicate installer error, or do you suppose they loosen over time? Ive seen plenty of loose screws on breakers and neutral bars too. Screws loosen over time, and loose is loose

As for receps, the blade insertions get loose before the backstabs, imho

The remedy is proper maintenance, which I suggest to as many customers as I can. I suggest a thorough maintenance call every 6-8 years, and whole house device replacement after 20 years.


Even if backstabs were far more prone to failure, should that necessarily translate into an aversion to the use of them?

Gas furnaces are far more prone to failure than an electric furnace, especially as the years go by. Maybe gas furnaces should be outlawed?

Asphalt roofs are far more prone to failure than slate roofs, especially as time goes by.

Wood fences fail way before wrought iron

Stuff wears out, that's just a fact of life. And compared to other things around the house, people are negligent when it comes to electrical maintenance. Not our fault, and we're not gonna save the world by refusing to backstab
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Comparing gas furnaces to electric, roof and fences ect is apples to oranges. A defective gas furnace doesn't start a fire. In fact explosions or fires from gas furnaces are extremely rare. A rotted fence isn't a fire risk and neither is a leaky roof. Even if they were changing design/listing standards would solve that.


Going back to stabs; a loose screw is usually poor installation and I can see that when making up me device. But when I back stab other then a tug, what guarantees contact inside is ok? Yes some screws loosen over time, but going by the same relative observations as you, again, I see more failed stabs than screws.



Perhaps stabs save some money, and there are electricians out there who will turn a blind eye to the risk because profit comes to play?


In other parts of the world back stabs are not even available, here is one example:

http://voltex.co.nz/p-346-power-point-double-horizontal-250v-10a-10-year-warranty.aspx
 
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iwire said:
A switch in a dwelling generally switches very little current. With CFLs and LEDs taking over even less current.

The backstabs do not seem to fail with small loads.

On the other hand you can never predict how much current is flowing through a receptacle circuit. More current, more heat, more likely a failure.
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Thanks. I couldn't have explained it better myself. Actually, I choose not to back-stab anything (just my preference). I was merely trying to make the point you so eloquently made on my behalf.:cool:

FWIW, as I've mentioned, I've often found that the first stabbed receptacle on the circuit is the culprit. That doesn't mean that others downstream won't be the cause of a problem. I recently replaced an extension cord female end and a male plug on a heater that a woman had in use in her garage to keep her tropical plants warm. Both items were melted and fused together, probably because of a poor connection caused by the combination of one of the male blades and jaw of the receptacle end. So, anything like that can be possible at a std. receptacle.
 
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mbrooke said:
At the cost of a fire risk. Should we build fire traps in all electrical systems to force customers to pay?
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No.

If we did that I'd be out of some of the service work I do during the off season around here.
 
We've had this discussion on back-stabs numerous times here in the Forum. I've also had numerous discussions with other electricians in my contractors association. Some swear by back-stabs and make the statement that they never have any problems. The problem is that they're the ones doing the new electrical work in the track homes and are not getting called back 5-10-15 years down the road when the receptacles start to fail.

Just because the NEC gives us a guide to provide (at least) the minimum required does that mean we should perform electrical installations that will only last a minimum amount of time as well ?
 
goldstar said:
We've had this discussion on back-stabs numerous times here in the Forum. I've also had numerous discussions with other electricians in my contractors association. Some swear by back-stabs and make the statement that they never have any problems. The problem is that they're the ones doing the new electrical work in the track homes and are not getting called back 5-10-15 years down the road when the receptacles start to fail.

Just because the NEC gives us a guide to provide (at least) the minimum required does that mean we should perform electrical installations that will only last a minimum amount of time as well ?
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I agree, well said. :) Adding my 2 cents even when we do code minimum it lasts well over 15 years. A code minimum install today (assuming load stays the same) can last 80 years no problem. In fact most service are oversized. There are homes in the 70s and minus the devices all else is still going strong. Heck, the NM-B sold today will probably last 130 years, and with so much safety factors built in I doubt any piece of NM comes close to 60*C in service let alone 90*C.



The issue at hand are these sub par devices that do not compliment anything else in terms of longevity or safety. The truth is back stabs are not so much an NEC issue but a listing one as well since the listing agencies approve them. However, the NEC could always ban them with a single blurb, the same way the NEC forced larger panel board gutter spaces in 1984.
 
mbrooke said:
I agree, well said. :) Adding my 2 cents even when we do code minimum it lasts well over 15 years. A code minimum install today (assuming load stays the same) can last 80 years no problem. In fact most service are oversized. There are homes in the 70s and minus the devices all else is still going strong. Heck, the NM-B sold today will probably last 130 years, and with so much safety factors built in I doubt any piece of NM comes close to 60*C in service let alone 90*C.



The issue at hand are these sub par devices that do not compliment anything else in terms of longevity or safety. The truth is back stabs are not so much an NEC issue but a listing one as well since the listing agencies approve them. However, the NEC could always ban them with a single blurb, the same way the NEC forced larger panel board gutter spaces in 1984.
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did they force larger panelboard gutter spaces or did they basicaly say if you want to be able to install a 70, 80 100 amp breaker in some of these smaller panels then you need to have sufficient wire bending space at the terminals of those breakers - essentially making the manufacturers decide that more space is needed in general? IDK, I started wiring with the 1987 NEC so this was not really an issue for me, but I hate working in some of those old small panels even if all that is run to it are 15 and 20 amp circuits Worse yet if it is filled with tandem/twin breakers.
 
I replaced a broken outlet in my bedroom this afternoon, face had cracked. It had been backstabbed by someone else at least 27 years ago. In honor of this thread, I backstabbed its replacement. :)
 
kwired said:
did they force larger panelboard gutter spaces or did they basicaly say if you want to be able to install a 70, 80 100 amp breaker in some of these smaller panels then you need to have sufficient wire bending space at the terminals of those breakers - essentially making the manufacturers decide that more space is needed in general? IDK, I started wiring with the 1987 NEC so this was not really an issue for me, but I hate working in some of those old small panels even if all that is run to it are 15 and 20 amp circuits Worse yet if it is filled with tandem/twin breakers.
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Direct or indirect, the rules forced panels with wider gutters after 1984. If the CMP wanted to a few carefully worded sentences can eliminate back stabs.




I hear you, the old panels were wretchedly awful. The stove circuit really bit into the gutter space so anything else had you cussing profusely. I can still remember the older Bryant panels with the neut/ground buried all the way in the back corner covered in wires :rant:
 
ceknight said:
I replaced a broken outlet in my bedroom this afternoon, face had cracked. It had been backstabbed by someone else at least 27 years ago. In honor of this thread, I backstabbed its replacement. :)
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Did you use Tamper proof or a AFCI.... :lol:


Oh yea NY still on the 2008!
 
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