Bad Connections?

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chris1971

chris1971

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These pictures are from a 200 Amp MB GE panel installed in 2003. We got the original service call a few weeks ago. The customer stated the panel makes a loud buzzing noise when they do the laundry. Gas dryer. My recommendation is to replace the 20 amp single pole circuit breaker for the laundry. I'm also looking at suggesting the panel be replaced. See the discoloration where the service entrance conductors terminate near the lugs? Thoughts?

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Why didn't you replace the 20 amp breaker while you were there?
If they didn't want to pay for that they ain't gonna spring for a service change.
I really cant see the discoloration you speak of because I cant get the pictures to zoom but I also don't think I would recommend a service change when you say its the laundry circuit breaker buzzing.
 
chris1971 said:
These pictures are from a 200 Amp MB GE panel installed in 2003. We got the original service call a few weeks ago. The customer stated the panel makes a loud buzzing noise when they do the laundry. Gas dryer. My recommendation is to replace the 20 amp single pole circuit breaker for the laundry. I'm also looking at suggesting the panel be replaced. See the discoloration where the service entrance conductors terminate near the lugs? Thoughts?

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Only the right side seems to have the discoloration. Is the laundry circuit on that side?
 
For me, the solution is simple.

My advice to the customer would be to do a service upgrade and not use a GE panel.

From the evidence provided, my gut feeling is there is a loose bus in the panel which is causing both heat near the main lug and vibration noise. I don't like GE stuff and wouldn't try to fix anything in that panel lest I become 'the owner' of everything else that will go wrong with it.

Swapping the breaker may stop the noise, but it sure won't stop the heating and thermal cycling of the main lug. Who do you think the customer will blame if you change a breaker and three weeks later the panel erupts in flames?

So, if it were me, I would say total upgrade with SqD Homeline or have someone else come out and work on the panel.

You can call me a pessimist, but there are those that know pessimists are usually experienced optimists.
 
There is a remote possibility that the "buzzing" sound was not electrical to begin with, but caused electrical problems through continued operation.

Here is what I am thinking. Let's say the main panel is in the laundry room, or on the exterior wall of the laundry room. Equipment operation, in this case the clothes dryer, can create vibrations that match the harmonic frequency of other materials. If the vibration of the clothes dryer matched the frequency of something inside the main panel, then over time the vibration could cause electrical connections in the panel to become loose and create heat.

If that is the case here, then replacing the breaker might only temporarily solve the problem. The vibration of the clothes dryer would need to be isolated from the main panel.

Just thinking out loud here.
 
Load the thing up and check for thermal heating, perform FOP tests.

No hot spots, might just be a component in a breaker with a 60 cycle hum when loaded, try using a different breaker in those cases.

Could be poorly braced bus bars I suppose.
 
kwired said:
Load the thing up and check for thermal heating, perform FOP tests.

No hot spots, might just be a component in a breaker with a 60 cycle hum when loaded, try using a different breaker in those cases.

Could be poorly braced bus bars I suppose.
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Sorry for the poor quality pictures. The bus on the right side where the lug and service entrance conductors are attached shows discoloration. It appears to be heat related. The buzzing noise at the main electrical panel happens when the homeowner is running the gas dryer & washing machine. That breaker is on the same phase as the bus with the discoloration.
 
chris1971 said:
Sorry for the poor quality pictures. The bus on the right side where the lug and service entrance conductors are attached shows discoloration. It appears to be heat related. The buzzing noise at the main electrical panel happens when the homeowner is running the gas dryer & washing machine. That breaker is on the same phase as the bus with the discoloration.
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Put a heavy load on it, if that main connection is heating up - replace the entire panel and breakers. Once it "loses it's temper" it will never be any good.

If it only heats up around the laundry breaker, you may get away with replacing only that breaker - not a good idea to use the same panel slot again though.
 
kwired said:
Put a heavy load on it, if that main connection is heating up - replace the entire panel and breakers. Once it "loses it's temper" it will never be any good.

If it only heats up around the laundry breaker, you may get away with replacing only that breaker - not a good idea to use the same panel slot again though.
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Assuming it's necessary, why not just replace the busses and maybe the adjacent breakers? The can should be fine.
 
gadfly56 said:
Assuming it's necessary, why not just replace the busses and maybe the adjacent breakers? The can should be fine.
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If it is new enough the same model is still in production - that is simplest, will still be least cost to purchase the entire load center and swap guts then to try to just purchase the guts alone I would guess. Whether or not you need to replace just a couple breakers or not depends on what you see when you expose the bus behind the breakers. In a dwelling I guess the chance is good it might just be a couple breakers effected.

I have run into this in non dwellings where there is constant loads for long periods and did replace all breakers (with just the panel guts because the same loadcenter was still being produced) just to make sure there was no call backs because we still had some compromised breakers that got reinstalled.

Every case has it's conditions that need to be taken into consideration.
 
kwired said:
If it is new enough the same model is still in production - that is simplest, will still be least cost to purchase the entire load center and swap guts then to try to just purchase the guts alone I would guess. Whether or not you need to replace just a couple breakers or not depends on what you see when you expose the bus behind the breakers. In a dwelling I guess the chance is good it might just be a couple breakers effected.

I have run into this in non dwellings where there is constant loads for long periods and did replace all breakers (with just the panel guts because the same loadcenter was still being produced) just to make sure there was no call backs because we still had some compromised breakers that got reinstalled.

Every case has it's conditions that need to be taken into consideration.
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OP says the original install was 2003. I have no idea what the product life cycle is for residential load centers. Is it likely still in production?
 
ptonsparky said:
Life...30 to ??? years unless the installer screwed things up.
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Product life cycle refers to design, development, production, support, and end-of-life for a particular product model or line, not for an individual panel. For example, the Siemens MXL product line had been in production since 1990. There was a product phase-out announcement in January of 2013. The phase-out announcement indicated that new systems would be available until October, 2013. After October 2013, system parts and components are available for service, expansion, and repairs until October, 2018. After that, detectors and devices are available until October, 2023. After that, "Good luck, Charlie."

The idea then, is what is the typical life cycle for residential panels where the panel or parts therefore are available? How long have QO loadcenters, for example, been around? The blurb on the Schneider web site suggests since 1955, but I don't know if that means you could drop today's guts into a panel from 1955.
 
gadfly56 said:
OP says the original install was 2003. I have no idea what the product life cycle is for residential load centers. Is it likely still in production?
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They still make the GE 200 amp MB panel. However, the newer panels have the 200 amp main breaker is mounted vertically. The existing 200 amp main breaker is mounted horizontally. They still have the same part number.
 
gadfly56 said:
The blurb on the Schneider web site suggests since 1955, but I don't know if that means you could drop today's guts into a panel from 1955.
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The wire bending space internal to panel enclosure has changed over the years and the bus structure is now 'molded' versus the original 'steel and insulation', but other than that you can certainly go ahead and try. I know that panelboard boxes that are 20"w and 5.75"d are relatively easy to upgrade.
 
gadfly56 said:
OP says the original install was 2003. I have no idea what the product life cycle is for residential load centers. Is it likely still in production?
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I am not too familiar with GE's products. The THQL breaker has been around a long time. The loadcenters they plug into have had changes that are significant enough that you will not easily swap the panelboard from one cabinet to an older cabinet. Same can be said for most of the other manufacturers.

More recently I swapped interior on a QO loadcenter that was installed 20-25 years ago, the new one happened to still be close enough to the same as the old it fit with no problems. There were still minor differences in some of the components.
 

Here is the video the customer sent me last Friday. The buzzing noise was when the washer and dryer are running. It doesn't happen all the time. Thoughts?
 
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