Bad inspector calls

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ceb58

ceb58

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Raeford, NC
Reading another post about an inspector making a bad call got me thinking ( bad thing). There have been many post about inspectors making bad calls with no reference to back them up. The questions have been ask here and have received answers all the way from the correct code article to kill the inspector.

For me one was a red tag for not having a GFCI for the washing machine:confused:. I was not there for the final and the only note that was left was a GFCI required for washer outlet. I was there for the CO inspection and the inspector was new to inspecting and had no electrical experience (multi-trade) I called him into the laundry room and ask him where in code was it requried to GFCI the washer? There is no sink in the room so that could have no bearing on the GFIC. His answer was " I thought if water was involved it had to be GFIC'ed" I then let him read 210.8 (A) 7 he then caught on to the concept. He was not offended and was glad to learn as he wanted to try and do a good job that was correct and compliant.

For those that have ran into these situations how did you handle the situation? What was the outcome? Did your "calling" out the inspector cause you grief down the road?
 
Most of the time it goes just like it has with your situation. The one and only problem I have is that in our area there is not a uniform enforcement of the code.
I have seen many get away with new circuits in bedrooms not AFCI's.
Then I get the statement " well we just do it different here" But I know I must do to code not what may pass inspection.
 
I've been lucky. As an E/C most of my work was in areas where the inspectors were very knowledgeable. Occasionally, one might be a little "picky" (EMT strap 42" from a box) but as a rule those minor items didn't result in a red tag just a knuckle wrap. I made every effort to learn all I could from them and I think they recognize that fact.
I did have one inspector "hold a grudge" when I questioned his call (he was wrong..but wanted it his way). For the next several jobs every time he could find something wrong he rd-tagged it and reminded me of the earlier call. I just smiled, corrected and in time he mellowed.
From an inspectors stand-point my advice is one word "Attitude". As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think the best approach is the "teach me; show me where that is in the Code" works well. More than once I've attempted to back up a point only to admit my error. (I try to look up and note Code references at the rejection, but get lazy).
My only peeve is the "know everything" E/C that wants to teach me the Code when he is not well versed himself. There are a few who seem to want to challenge every rejection and although I strive to be a better person, for those few I do find myself inspecting THOROUGHLY
 
Way back in 1988 when I did a service upgrade on my house, the inspector wouldn't sign off on the pvc conduit sleeves I had used to protect the NM as it went under the house. (Surface mount panel, the pvc conduit exited the bottom of the panel and were under 3' long, with bushings on the under house ends, and all NM's were stapled to a board within 12" of exiting the conduits.)

The original panel was a Zinsco. :roll:

His argument was that NM wasn't allowed in conduit, and even after I showed him the exception (back then) which allowed what I did, he still wouldn't sign off. I told him I wanted a second opinion, and he gave me his bosses number and left. I called his boss who agreed with me, no violation. He asked what the inspector wanted me to do, and I told him. (The inspector wanted me to install a pull can and splice THHN to all the cables. Oh, and one of those cables was the 6/4 to the electric range!!)

I asked the boss if he agreed that splices can be a weak link in any electrical system, and he agreed they could be. So I then asked why his inspector was trying to insist that I introduce deliberate weaknesses into a system that I just spent a lot of time and money taking the weaknesses out of. He chuckled and said he'd talk to the guy when he came in.

The next morning the inspector called me and said (I'm not making this up) "I talked to my friends(?) at the office and they said if I think it's safe we can sign it off anyways." :confused:

Whatever. The POCO came out later that day to do the hookup and they were blown away with how nice the panel was done. Couldn't understand why the inspector had issues.

The poco also gave me a heavy-duty drop instead of the usual #6 triplex as I told them that between the electric range, central air and my workshop I would burn down that #6. :D
 
I guess you're referring to my question about mixing conductor sizes. In my case, there's a pretty big opportunity for misunderstanding since we're going through the layperson customer. From my point of view, that's a problem with the inspector too--a tag or a note would have gone a long way towards making the matter clear.

In general, I think it's just a matter of inter-personal skills. Nobody likes being yelled at or called out; almost everybody wants to learn and do better. I like to ask questions, give the guy a way out, and then joke about it. I'll make mistakes, he'll make mistakes, everybody's human.

In extreme situations, there are "little generals", as my grandma would call them. When you do battle with these guys, you have to make sure you're going to win the war--not just the battle.

Asking to talk over code is the right thing to do to start out, usually. If I think code says this, and the inspector thinks it says that, it's really his opinion that matters. If I can understand his opinion and just do it, then that's fine; if I can change his opinion, that might be better in the long run.

I've been dinged for local exceptions, but never for a direct NEC issue. The local exceptions are sometimes hard to keep straight, and in one situation I actually thought of the exception but didn't realize I was a few blocks north of the city line. One case was a service conductor sizing issue, and I was surprised the power company guy didn't say anything--but it was certainyl right to fix it. The other case was a just a verbal explanation and the guy signed-off anyhow.

It's also more than once gone in my advantage. The inspector signed off the whole job, for example, when I knew that room 1, 2 and 3 were done, but room 4 wasn't finished. I showed up the next day to find the signed inspection form.

When I first started (not long ago!) I thought the inspectors would be either electrical engineers with tons of field experience, or old electricians who decided to work for the state/county/town. It seems like most towns are hiring one guy to do all of the different disciplines--from construction to gas to electrical--and that's really spreading them thin.
 
When I read Gus's post's I always get the feeling that we would get along well.

Like him I always try to do the right thing. If I'm not sure I look it up, if the EC want's to argue I make him look it up. Also like Gus the know it alls annoy me the most. "We just did the same thing over in _________ and it passed". That doesn't make me wrong, it makes _________ wrong. Just because it passed doesn't mean it was right.
 
mxslick said:
The next morning the inspector called me and said (I'm not making this up) "I talked to my friends(?) at the office and they said if I think it's safe we can sign it off anyways." :confused:
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That is just the inspector not wanting to admit he was wrong, but also not taking a risk that you'll do the legwork and further your case until he was forced to admit he was wrong.

I'd prefer if he said, "I talked to some other guys and they showed me that it wasn't required, so you are all set."

The problem is other ECs who will then try to take advantage of him next time because this time he admitted his mistake.
 
Bad inspector calls

Years ago when I was put in charge of running the truck or job,I was given some good advice.My boss told me to ask, if I didn't know the code or how it applied to a certain job.He actually used a few choice words in making sure I understood what he meant.After many jobs and alot of mistakes I'm still asking for help from time to time.As a contractor that's my job.I 've met on many occasions with the chief inspector to ask for help.Seems like we both have a job to do ,and together we can help each other and have things run a little smoother.My, dad was the boss at the time .He would never say he was a master electrician.He always said I do electrical work.
 
augie47 said:
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think the best approach is the "teach me; show me where that is in the Code" works well. More than once I've attempted to back up a point only to admit my error. (I try to look up and note Code references at the rejection, but get lazy).
My only peeve is the "know everything" E/C that wants to teach me the Code when he is not well versed himself. There are a few who seem to want to challenge every rejection and although I strive to be a better person, for those few I do find myself inspecting THOROUGHLY
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Wouldn't it be to everyones benefit to make it a habit and list the code references cited at inspection? I bet if you did it enough you wouldn't even need to look them up after a while.;)

Wouldn't that help keep the electricians from challenging your rejected inspection report if there was a code article staring them in the face?

I know I have a hard time arguing when I look up the particular article cited, and what do you know, he was right. Doh!:)
 
jaylectricity said:
That is just the inspector not wanting to admit he was wrong, but also not taking a risk that you'll do the legwork and further your case until he was forced to admit he was wrong.

I'd prefer if he said, "I talked to some other guys and they showed me that it wasn't required, so you are all set."

The problem is other ECs who will then try to take advantage of him next time because this time he admitted his mistake.
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I agree with that assessment. I found it a very odd way of backing off, and wondered if maybe he hadn't had his coffee yet. :)
 
Cow said:
Wouldn't it be to everyones benefit to make it a habit and list the code references cited at inspection? I bet if you did it enough you wouldn't even need to look them up after a while.;)

Wouldn't that help keep the electricians from challenging your rejected inspection report if there was a code article staring them in the face?

I know I have a hard time arguing when I look up the particular article cited, and what do you know, he was right. Doh!:)
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Actually by law here in CA we're supposed to cite the code section, but if any of you guys have that book memorized let me know how you did it. I've been an inspector for 20 years and there are only a few code sections that I can recite by memory, doesn't mean I don't know that it's in the book, it simply means that I don't know the number.

Since I'm "The" electrical inspector, it's my job to train the other inspectors. Right now I have jobs in the 2002, 2005 and am training for the 2008. Numbers change, sections change, articles are added and deleated.

If the guy has only one or two corrections, it's not really a big deal, but get a guy with a two page notice and it could take another 30 minutes to look up all the sections. Usually if I have to write that many I just save my time and tell the EC that he's not ready for inspection.
 
I have been on both ends of this issue. Time constraints often doesn't leave me enough time to list all the code sections with my violation notice but I am always ready to gove a code reference to anyone who asks. I encourage it. I figure that 99% of the guys out there are trying to do it right. If they do it just because I said so they will go to their old way of doing it in the next town but if I can show them why its required they will change the way the do it.

I also appreciate it if the show me my mistake. I am very good at what I do but I will not get better if I am repeating a mistake again and again and no one calls me on it.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Actually by law here in CA we're supposed to cite the code section, but if any of you guys have that book memorized let me know how you did it. I've been an inspector for 20 years and there are only a few code sections that I can recite by memory, doesn't mean I don't know that it's in the book, it simply means that I don't know the number.

Since I'm "The" electrical inspector, it's my job to train the other inspectors. Right now I have jobs in the 2002, 2005 and am training for the 2008. Numbers change, sections change, articles are added and deleated.

If the guy has only one or two corrections, it's not really a big deal, but get a guy with a two page notice and it could take another 30 minutes to look up all the sections. Usually if I have to write that many I just save my time and tell the EC that he's not ready for inspection.
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Does that really save any time by writing not ready ? That will just result in a phone call.

Had inspector friend that showed me how he handled this. On a paper he kept with him he had the code number to the top 20 or so violations. Said that it was often the same stupid things like spaceing of receptacles , stapling distance on romex, etc.
 
I can remember the top 20 it is all the others I can't. I only say not ready if the work is incomplete or on rare occasions if left a long list and repairs have only been attemted on one or two items.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Does that really save any time by writing not ready ? That will just result in a phone call.

Had inspector friend that showed me how he handled this. On a paper he kept with him he had the code number to the top 20 or so violations. Said that it was often the same stupid things like spaceing of receptacles , stapling distance on romex, etc.
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If you have two pages of corrections, you weren't trying very hard to pass and we're just wasting each others time.:D (Not you specifically of course.)

Telling them they're not ready can save them a reinspection fee.

Top 20 is a good idea and your friend is right, certain tyes of jobs you can almost write the correction notice before you leave the office.:D Above suspended ceiling in an existing suite is usually good for straping and missing KO seals.

With out hijacking this thread to bad, a couple of phrases that let you know that you'll probably be leaving paper:
(For entertainment purposes only :))

"What's the latest you can come?"

It's Friday morning "Our grand opening is tomorrow"

"I'm changing out my service and I just have a couple of questions, what size wire do I need?"

"My cousin and I .............."

"The electrician's not here, but he says he's done."

They pulled their permit yesterday afternoon. "We're ready for rough on those 25 offices."
 
I am guilty of calling in 4 weeks worth of work on a permit that ink has not dried. But that is because of slow permiting. Paper is on them windows for more than keeping the sun out LOL
Here we often get early start permits, just can't cover anything up. Never had an inspector care. Not trying to get away with anything but jobs don't need held up over a dang permit.
 
cowboyjwc said:
If the guy has only one or two corrections, it's not really a big deal, but get a guy with a two page notice and it could take another 30 minutes to look up all the sections. Usually if I have to write that many I just save my time and tell the EC that he's not ready for inspection.
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I can understand where you're coming from. Like someone else said, I'll bet some articles are cited all the time. It'd seem like spending a little time making a cheat sheet with the most common ones referenced would be worth the time saved in the end by not having to drag out the big book everytime.

If the electrician really has 2 pages worth, it sounds like a phone call might be in order, he needs a little education.:)

Fortunately I haven't broke the 1 page mark yet, but I've been close. The inspector was very ambitious.;)
 
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