Bar area

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Oakey

Oakey

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New Jersey
I am giving a price for a basement bar area with countertops, 2-24inch counters actually and a wine fridge underneath. There is a sink between the counters so I will gfi protect the outlets. I'm going to put 2 receptacles in just for conveinance but I want to avoid any inspection issues..
My question is..
Do the kitchen counter rules apply here?
1) Spacing
2) #12 gauge
3) 2 circuits
Thanks in advance
 
210.52 B1 kitchens,pantry,breakfast room,dinning room, or similar area. If you can plug in a coffee maker or hot plate I would say 210.52 applies.
 
This is tough not knowing the real use.Could be a lot of things.I would try to call it a wet bar.This is where the stamped print goes into efect,just what did they call this ?I am in the midle of building something like this for my own use.Just how large are we talking about and what does the print call it ?Mine is for seeting about 60 people but no electric needed for anything.Keeping mine portable as meaning not nailed down.
 
Oakey said:
I am giving a price for a basement bar area with countertops, 2-24inch counters actually and a wine fridge underneath. There is a sink between the counters so I will gfi protect the outlets. I'm going to put 2 receptacles in just for conveinance but I want to avoid any inspection issues..
My question is..
Do the kitchen counter rules apply here?
1) Spacing
2) #12 gauge
3) 2 circuits
Thanks in advance
Click to expand...
The nec does not really define a kitchen, at least I can't find it, but there really is no cooking going on here that's obvious so I would not call this a kitchen. It sounds like a wet bar to me. I would still put wire with #12 on the counters because of mixers and possible coffee machines or even a microwave.
 
ryan_618 said:
210.8(B)(2)
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I just realized that this is referring to other than dwelling units . One could get picky and argue the op original question. Would you agree it is not a kitchen?
 
Well...if you want to get REALLY picky. It says "for the purposes of this section, a kitchen is..."

210 is the Article
210.8 is the section
210.8(B) is the subsection.

This definition applies to the section, not the just the subsection :)

BTW: In 2008 you will find this exact definition in Article 100, where it will apply throughout the code.
 
ryan_618 said:
Well...if you want to get REALLY picky. It says "for the purposes of this section, a kitchen is..."

210 is the Article
210.8 is the section
210.8(B) is the subsection.

This definition applies to the section, not the just the subsection :)

BTW: In 2008 you will find this exact definition in Article 100, where it will apply throughout the code.
Click to expand...
Thanks again and by the way, I love your avatar-- I laugh every time I see it
 
This is most likely considered a wet bar. The whole project is 6 ft long with winefridge/sink/2 counters and under counter lighting and gets attached to the wall. The inspector is on vacation and I'm just not sure if 210.8(B)(2) is applied in this application. Do I need to run a 20 amp circuit or do I need 2 of them?
 
Oakey said:
This is most likely considered a wet bar. The whole project is 6 ft long with winefridge/sink/2 counters and under counter lighting and gets attached to the wall. The inspector is on vacation and I'm just not sure if 210.8(B)(2) is applied in this application. Do I need to run a 20 amp circuit or do I need 2 of them?
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Is this a commercial application because art. 210.8(B)(2) is for other than dwelling. IMO,This article would not apply anyway because their is no permanent facilities for food AND cooking. You do not need a 20 amp circuit and you don't need 2 circuits, however, as I stated before I would run at least one 20 amp circuit for the counter receptacles to be safe.
 
I don't see how you could define this as a kitchen. I would call it a wet bar. I'd run a 15 amp circuit for the wine fridge and a 20 to serve the gfci'd counter use receptacles.

Side note. Jim, not all jobs have a stamped print. While it would be nice to have that luxury, if that's what one would call it, it is not realistic.

Don't forget to sell them under, over, and in cabinet lighting.
 
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ryan_618 said:
210.8(B)(2)
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Ryan the OP did not state what this was IE a dwelling or other but by the describtion I would say it is a dwelling so 210.8.A applies not B as that is other than dwelling
 
Bea said:
Ryan the OP did not state what this was IE a dwelling or other but by the describtion I would say it is a dwelling so 210.8.A applies not B as that is other than dwelling
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Bea-- Ryan was responding to my question about the code defining a kitchen. Read the earlier post and you will see.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Is this a commercial application because art. 210.8(B)(2) is for other than dwelling. IMO,This article would not apply anyway because their is no permanent facilities for food AND cooking. You do not need a 20 amp circuit and you don't need 2 circuits, however, as I stated before I would run at least one 20 amp circuit for the counter receptacles to be safe.
Click to expand...


I agree, a bar is not a kitchen. Wire it any way that you want. Just provide GFCI protection to any receptacles within 6' of the wet bar sink.
 
If this is a dwelling, which I believe it is because of the basement reference, 210.52(B) should be the application. Small appliance circuit is not limited to kitchen and DRM, but similar areas as well. Wet bars are an interpretation at worst, with the likelihood of blenders and other appliances, but that one may well be argued. The wet bar will not be required to have its own 2 circuits. It will part of the two required. My understanding is there shall be 2 circuits to cover all the areas, not each.
 
ryan_618 said:
Well...if you want to get REALLY picky. It says "for the purposes of this section, a kitchen is..."

210 is the Article
210.8 is the section
210.8(B) is the subsection.

This definition applies to the section, not the just the subsection :)

BTW: In 2008 you will find this exact definition in Article 100, where it will apply throughout the code.
Click to expand...

Ryan,
You can buy them books and send them to school but it is on them to learn.

as you have pointed out above:
This definition applies to the section, not the just the subsection
 
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