• We will be performing upgrades on the forums and server over the weekend. The forums may be unavailable multiple times for up to an hour each. Thank you for your patience and understanding as we work to make the forums even better.

Basement definition

Merry Christmas
Status
Not open for further replies.

Mtnskiskate1

Member
Location
30546
Occupation
Electrician
Can someone direct me to the origin of the
diagram showing the the two examples of
a basement which is technically not a basement. I have an inspector who is telling
me if one wall (out of four) has two feet of
fill dirt, we'll be calling that a basement and
ground faulting all receptacles. Saves him the trouble of defining grade plane and applying the 6' and 12' rules. Can't figure out
why we should have all these rules if we're not going to learn and apply them.
Thanks
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Your local building department should be able to provide you with very specific guidelines for what defines a basement in your area.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
As far as I'm concerned, any residential slab-on-grade space that has an unfinished concrete floor should have GFCI receptacles. Doesn't matter if there is soil against one or all sides or whether it's called a basement.

When it becomes finished space with a floor and walls etc. then the 6/12 rule comes into play as well as not requiring GFCI's.

-Hal
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
As Larry says, the definition may vary by agency
The IRC at times rivals the NEC in complexity but you can go here and see the definitions:
 

Mtnskiskate1

Member
Location
30546
Occupation
Electrician
As far as I'm concerned, any residential slab-on-grade space that has an unfinished concrete floor should have GFCI receptacles. Doesn't matter if there is soil against one or all sides or whether it's called a basement.

When it becomes finished space with a floor and walls etc. then the 6/12 rule comes into play as well as not requiring GFCI's.

-Hal
It is completely finished, high end, even the mechanical room has wood flooring. I am not
referring to the 6/12 rule on spacing. I am referencing the 6/12 rule for defining grade plane of which I am absolutely in compliance with.
 

Mtnskiskate1

Member
Location
30546
Occupation
Electrician
As Larry says, the definition may vary by agency
The IRC at times rivals the NEC in complexity but you can go here and see the definitions:
Someone posted a diagram awhile back as I
referenced earlier and I am hoping to find its
origin. I have been through all of those definitions in the IRC, IBC, life safety, etc. My argument
is sound and well researched. I have lost this
fight and at this point I just want to make sure they know they are incorrect and UNWILLING to do the work involved in properly classifying a grade plane. The implications are not for (1) job, they are for
the next (100) that come down the pike. Leakage current exceeding 6 ma will always
exist in an Amazon supplied economy. Trane can't even seem to make an air handler compatible with a GFCI. Sorry for the rant, just waiting for my hospital jobs to start requiring AFCI protection, I'm sure that one's right around the next code cycle.
 

letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
As far as I'm concerned, any residential slab-on-grade space that has an unfinished concrete floor should have GFCI receptacles. Doesn't matter if there is soil against one or all sides or whether it's called a basement.

When it becomes finished space with a floor and walls etc. then the 6/12 rule comes into play as well as not requiring GFCI's.

-Hal
2020 requires finished basements to have GFCI on "All" outlets not just receptacles. Alot of states have amended this to exclude things like a basement range.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
It is completely finished, high end, even the mechanical room has wood flooring. I am not referring to the 6/12 rule on spacing. I am referencing the 6/12 rule for defining grade plane of which I am absolutely in compliance with.
But that same definition that has the 6/12 rule also defines a "story above grade" as being one where the floor of that story is completely above grade. Any thing that is below a "story above grade" is a basement.
 

Mtnskiskate1

Member
Location
30546
Occupation
Electrician
Or for which the story above is at least 6' above average grade or is 12' above finished grade at any point.

Cheers, Wayne
This statement is correct and what I based my argument on but the AHJ has decided it is not in his best interest to adhere to this. Read between the lines, I will have to rule on every one of these and I am not going to bother taking the time. We don't get to ignore our
rules, why should they?
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Or for which the story above is at least 6' above average grade or is 12' above finished grade at any point.

Cheers, Wayne
Then there are almost no houses in my town that have basements. The clause before the "or" is totally independent from the rest of the definition.
(from a building code site)
Any story having its finished floor surface entirely above grade plane, or in which the finished surface of the floor next above is:
  1. More than 6 feet (1829 mm) above grade plane; or
  2. More than 12 feet (3658 mm) above the finished ground level at any point.

This definition has caused some confusion in the past, so here is a step by step breakdown:
  1. Is the floor surface of the story in question located entirely above the grade plane elevation?
  2. Is the floor surface of the floor above the story in question located more than 6 feet above the grade plane elevation?
  3. Is the floor surface of the floor above the story in question located more than 12 feet above any of the grade measurements at any point along the building exterior walls?
If you answered yes to any of the three questions above, the floor in question is considered a story above grade plane.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Then there are almost no houses in my town that have basements. The clause before the "or" is totally independent from the rest of the definition.
I'm not sure what your point is.

I agree with the material you quoted below the above comment. Meet any of the 3 criteria, and the story is not a basement. Fail to meet any of them, and the story is a basement. You initially mentioned just one of the 3 criteria, and I was just adding the other two.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top