I returned from a trip to find 6" of water in my basement. The culprit was a "popped" GFCI that served a sump pump. The operating switch for my well pressurizer tank was underwater and fried. When I had it replaced I asked the electrician to replace the GFCI receptacle and he refused. He told me that the code required GFCI protection for all basement outlets. I replaced the outlet myself. Am I doing something unsafe?
basement GFI
- Thread starter WMitch
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: basement GFI
The "culprit" was not the GFCI receptacle. The culprit was whatever caused the GFCI receptacle to think that something had shorted to ground. It is most likely that the GFCI was doing its job, and that some type of fault had occurred in the pump.
What you have done is akin to overcooking something on the stove, causing the smoke alarm to go off, and then removing the battery because you don't like the noise. The next time there is smoke in the house, the alarm will not be able to warn you. In your case, then next time something goes wrong with the pump, the GFCI will not be there to protect you.
Yes. The NEC requires GFCI protection of all receptacle outlets in unfunished basement areas of dwelling units.
The "culprit" was not the GFCI receptacle. The culprit was whatever caused the GFCI receptacle to think that something had shorted to ground. It is most likely that the GFCI was doing its job, and that some type of fault had occurred in the pump.
What you have done is akin to overcooking something on the stove, causing the smoke alarm to go off, and then removing the battery because you don't like the noise. The next time there is smoke in the house, the alarm will not be able to warn you. In your case, then next time something goes wrong with the pump, the GFCI will not be there to protect you.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: basement GFI
Charlie,
This receptacle is permitted not to have GFCI protection. Read 210.8 (5) Exception 2. We are allowed to have a single non-GFCI receptacle for a washing machine, gas dryer, freezer, sump pump, etc.
Charlie,
This receptacle is permitted not to have GFCI protection. Read 210.8 (5) Exception 2. We are allowed to have a single non-GFCI receptacle for a washing machine, gas dryer, freezer, sump pump, etc.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: basement GFI
That is true, Peter, but I suspect that it is irrelevant. I suspect that the receptacle that was originally installed by the electrician, and that was replaced by the homeowner, was a duplex.
Wmitch: Can you confirm or refute this suspicion of mine?
That is true, Peter, but I suspect that it is irrelevant. I suspect that the receptacle that was originally installed by the electrician, and that was replaced by the homeowner, was a duplex.
Wmitch: Can you confirm or refute this suspicion of mine?
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: basement GFI
If it's a duplex, then yes it's indeed unsafe and a code violation.
But the option is there not to have GFCI protection, and the electrician who looked at the installation should have presented that option rather than refusing to do the job correctly, thus allowing an even greater hazard to exsist.
If it's a duplex, then yes it's indeed unsafe and a code violation.
But the option is there not to have GFCI protection, and the electrician who looked at the installation should have presented that option rather than refusing to do the job correctly, thus allowing an even greater hazard to exsist.
Re: basement GFI
A couple of things - The receptacle is a duplex. The electrician checked out both the GFCI and the sump motor. He could find nothing wrong with either one. This guy has done quite a bit of work for me (all first rate) and I trust his judgement, but I think he is wrong on this.
I have GFCIs in my shop that pop sometimes when I start a large power tool. My refrigerator is on a 20A kitchen appliance circuit and is the only kitchen outlet not GFCI served. Am I correct in thinking that a motor power surge (such as a sump pump motor) can sometimes trip a GFCI? If a duplex outlet is a problem, I can replace with a single receptacle.
My thinking is that a flooded basement where the water level is high enough to submerge energized electrical equipment is much more dangerous than operating a sump unprotected by a GFCI.
A couple of things - The receptacle is a duplex. The electrician checked out both the GFCI and the sump motor. He could find nothing wrong with either one. This guy has done quite a bit of work for me (all first rate) and I trust his judgement, but I think he is wrong on this.
I have GFCIs in my shop that pop sometimes when I start a large power tool. My refrigerator is on a 20A kitchen appliance circuit and is the only kitchen outlet not GFCI served. Am I correct in thinking that a motor power surge (such as a sump pump motor) can sometimes trip a GFCI? If a duplex outlet is a problem, I can replace with a single receptacle.
My thinking is that a flooded basement where the water level is high enough to submerge energized electrical equipment is much more dangerous than operating a sump unprotected by a GFCI.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: basement GFI
In theory, a GFCI should ignore any current common to both circuit conductors, regardless of the waveform distortions and/or "surges".
I would suggest contacting the engineering department of the GFCI manufacturer.
In theory, a GFCI should ignore any current common to both circuit conductors, regardless of the waveform distortions and/or "surges".
I would suggest contacting the engineering department of the GFCI manufacturer.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: basement GFI
And in case you didn't already know this, you need to know this. The circuit breaker in your main panel will NOT, NOT, NOT trip to protect you from being electrocuted by a hand-held tool. How do I know this? Because the tool might draw 10 amps, and a current of 0.1 amps is enough to kill. That makes the total current 10.1 amps, and that will not trip a 15 amp or 20 amp breaker.
He's not wrong.
A single receptacle would be code-compliant. The difference is that it will keep you from plugging in some other device. If that other device were to have an internal fault, and if you were holding it when the fault occurred, then there would be no GFCI to save you from the fault current.
And in case you didn't already know this, you need to know this. The circuit breaker in your main panel will NOT, NOT, NOT trip to protect you from being electrocuted by a hand-held tool. How do I know this? Because the tool might draw 10 amps, and a current of 0.1 amps is enough to kill. That makes the total current 10.1 amps, and that will not trip a 15 amp or 20 amp breaker.
It is not the sump pump that is being protected by the GFCI. It is the person who might touch the sump pump that would be protected from a fault within the sump pump.
Re: basement GFI
You know that it is pretty common for a GFCI recept to kick off when you have a skill saw on an extension cord say 50ft. or longer when you first pull the trigger on the saw & I have allways thought that to be pretty strange does any one have a theory why this occures when there is no actual ground fault?
You know that it is pretty common for a GFCI recept to kick off when you have a skill saw on an extension cord say 50ft. or longer when you first pull the trigger on the saw & I have allways thought that to be pretty strange does any one have a theory why this occures when there is no actual ground fault?
Re: basement GFI
If it were MY basement
AND I had 6" of water in there ONCE
I would have the 110 volt pump and it would be on GFCI.
I would ANOTHER pump have battery backup on it.
That way if the GFCI tripped
OR the pump clogged (yes I would use a strainer)
OR the power failed
I would NOT have 6" of water in the basement.
Submarine service taught me
water in the "people tank" is not a good thing
I live on a boat - technically I have four bilge pumps.
If it were MY basement
AND I had 6" of water in there ONCE
I would have the 110 volt pump and it would be on GFCI.
I would ANOTHER pump have battery backup on it.
That way if the GFCI tripped
OR the pump clogged (yes I would use a strainer)
OR the power failed
I would NOT have 6" of water in the basement.
Submarine service taught me
water in the "people tank" is not a good thing
I live on a boat - technically I have four bilge pumps.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Re: basement GFI
The saw on the extension cord trips the GFCI because of the capacitive coupling between the ungrounded and the grounded conductors in the cable.
I no longer find many nuisance trips of GFCIs, most trips have been caused by faulty equipment. Personally for the past 14 years I have had a basement fridge, freezer, and a sump pump (which runs every 15 min.) on a single GFCI circuit, and have never had an unexplained trip.
The saw on the extension cord trips the GFCI because of the capacitive coupling between the ungrounded and the grounded conductors in the cable.
I no longer find many nuisance trips of GFCIs, most trips have been caused by faulty equipment. Personally for the past 14 years I have had a basement fridge, freezer, and a sump pump (which runs every 15 min.) on a single GFCI circuit, and have never had an unexplained trip.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: basement GFI
Replace the duplex with a single receptacle and get on with life. No problem.
Replace the duplex with a single receptacle and get on with life. No problem.
james wuebker
Senior Member
- Location
- Iowa
Re: basement GFI
Put a duplex back on. Your going to need it when you install your battery backup pump there. Use a GFCI also.
Jim
Put a duplex back on. Your going to need it when you install your battery backup pump there. Use a GFCI also.
Jim
sheldon_ace
Member
- Location
- Owego, NY
Re: basement GFI
I agree, have a redundant pump and a gfci and get on with life. You probably have better things to worry about.
I agree, have a redundant pump and a gfci and get on with life. You probably have better things to worry about.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: basement GFI
Agreed.
- Status