Basement Rough, Trim

[Mgraw]

My wife is a paralegal. She worked 20 years for a lawyer that did fire insurance defense. They investigated every claim. If their investigators determined the fire was caused by electrical they went after the last person to pull a permit in the area of the fire. They rarely lost.

 

[powerslave]

My wife is a paralegal. She worked 20 years for a lawyer that did fire insurance defense. They investigated every claim. If their investigators determined the fire was caused by electrical they went after the last person to pull a permit in the area of the fire. They rarely lost.

By me if they can't determine what started the fire they blame it on electrical. Kinda crappy if they did that and you were the one who last pulled a permit.

 

[nhfire77]

My wife is a paralegal. She worked 20 years for a lawyer that did fire insurance defense. They investigated every claim. If their investigators determined the fire was caused by electrical they went after the last person to pull a permit in the area of the fire. They rarely lost.

I know a whole bunch of "fire investigators' that are independent contractors for insurance companies that wouldn't know how to inspect a damages receptacle, let alone a fire damaged one.

Do you know if they were trained by the FBI or other law enforcement agency.

I know that their internal investigators don't have to be, I've seen a lot of clowns here in new england. I also admit, there are a lot of great investigators.

 

[Mgraw]

I know a couple of them were fire investigators for the state before going into private practice. They were also considered experts by the courts.

 

[readydave8]

Got a call from a homeowner wanting a quote for wireing his basement, in talking with him he wants me to pull permit and do rough in then he will do the trim his self on my permit, i guess the question is can i do the rough and get inspection then let homeowner pull a trim permit to finish, or should i just not take the job at all.

I have done this several times in the past and can't say that its ever worked out very well. Usually now I avoid it, sometimes I'm able to explain how little the HO is actually saving, the trimout may be 30% but a lot of that is materials cost that he has to pay anyway.

It never fails to amaze me that there is no job too simple to mess up.

 

[Mgraw]

By me if they can't determine what started the fire they blame it on electrical. Kinda crappy if they did that and you were the one who last pulled a permit.

They only went after the electrician if it was determined the fire was caused by electrical.

 

[iwire]

They only went after the electrician if it was determined the fire was caused by electrical.

And they can determine who did it, not just the last sap that walked out the door.:roll:

Some pretty ridiculous posts in this thread.

 

[Mgraw]

And they can determine who did it, not just the last sap that walked out the door.:roll:

Some pretty ridiculous posts in this thread.

True but if you don't have detailed records of what you did the first piece of evidence they are going to use against you is the permit to show you did work there. In most cases the owner is not going to admit he did unpermited work or his own work when the insurance company is looking to deny his claim.

 

[iwire]

True but if you don't have detailed records of what you did the first piece of evidence they are going to use against you is the permit to show you did work there. In most cases the owner is not going to admit he did unpermited work or his own work when the insurance company is looking to deny his claim.

I don't have to prove I did not do it, they have to show it is reasonable to believe I did do it.

The fact I worked in the building is far from enough.

 

[Mgraw]

I don't have to prove I did not do it, they have to show it is reasonable to believe I did do it.

The fact I worked in the building is far from enough.

iwire I agree with you in principle. But jurors almost always look for someone to blame. It doesn't take much to convince them somebody was at fault. Why do you think insurance companies settle so many frivolous lawsuits?

 

[wireguy8169]

What state? In Ohio homeowners are allowed to work on their own (personal residence) home.

However I would say that if you did the work (pulled the permit) you would be responsible for the installation.

In your area could the homeowner hire you as a 'sub' and could they pull the permit?

Only problem is still the homeowner could blame you if something goes wrong, the permit would not protect you from the liability of their work...

 

[George Stolz]

Got a call from a homeowner wanting a quote for wireing his basement, in talking with him he wants me to pull permit and do rough in then he will do the trim his self on my permit, i guess the question is can i do the rough and get inspection then let homeowner pull a trim permit to finish, or should i just not take the job at all.

It should be really easy to sell him on allowing you to do the trim, when you tell him that your warranty would be voided by him touching the electrical before final, and that your trim price would only be the cost of the material he's installing. Tell him that your pricing is always based on a finished product, and it's not worthwhile to reinvent the bidding wheel for one (one-off cheap) homeowner. Therefore, the cost is necessarily going to exceed his benefit for doing this job himself.

Tell him you like him, and because he's him, you will allow him to apprentice under you for this house at no extra charge to him, to teach him the subtle details that he might have screwed up trimming his own house.

 

[480sparky]

Only problem is still the homeowner could blame you if something goes wrong, the permit would not protect you from the liability of their work...

Could? Try will. After all, you are the expert. The professional. The one who is supposed to do it right. He who haseth the answers. The one with the training, the license, the experience, the knowledge...........

 

[CopperTone]

i wired a house once that 1/2 burned down - i was called to secure some wiring and get some stuff back up and running - the investigators had all the wiring tagged as evidence and I received a notice that the wiring was being investigated - I looked at the burnt wiring - it was a receptacle - the stud was gone the staples were gone, the plastic box was gone, the plastic part of the device was gone, the insulation from the nm wire was gone - it was just 3 bare wiries hanging from the ceiling where the wall once was - at the end you could see the 3 terminations still tightly attached to the metal protion of the receptacle made up tight as the day we installed it.

We never heard again from anyone - it was a fireplace fire - turns out the fireplace was built wrong and the heat from the fire burned a hole in the back of the fireplace and up the back of the wall.

A good investigator will find the source of the fire -
When I called my insurance agent concerned about getting sued - she said - don't worrry - if their insurance tries to blame you - then my insurance company will launch their own investigation because they won't want to pay either. So your insurance company is on your side in that case.

Back to the OP - I would be very hesitant about agreeing to that situation - however - if you pull a permit and do the rough only - you would then have the permit removed from your name and the job terminated at that point. I would write a letter to the building dept stating that you only rough wired the job and were not responsible for the wiring as you did not finish installing the wiring. The homeowner would then be responsible to get another permit for the finish and have that inspected or hire another electrician to finish. I've taken over a finish before for an electrician that was fired from a job - new permits, letters written - etc.

 

[nhfire77]

And they can determine who did it, not just the last sap that walked out the door.:roll:

Some pretty ridiculous posts in this thread.

Exactly. Was the last permit 5 years ago? So your guilty because there was NO work, supposedly, done since you were there. Its possible. That's weak.

Now if the fire started say a week after, I would feel that is probable.

 

[growler]

I don't think what the OP posted is that unusual of a request. I do this all the time in varying forms. People think they save money by having me wire a box and they put up the fixture or fan after the fact.
Just did this yesterday. Ceiling box over island, blank plate, done.
Doing one this week for a kitchen project. The guy will put up the fan himself.

I don't see anything wrong with the customer installing a fixture or fan after the job is closed out. Most electricians pre-wire for fans.

But the switches, receptacles, exhaust fans, appliances and smoke detectors must be installed for a final. If the customer doesn't want to purchase expensive fixtures or fans I will just stick up a plastic keyless fixture as a light source for the room but it will be switched.

But once I get a job to where it will pass the final a homeowner is not working under my permit ( it's closed out ) and whatever he does is his own business.

 

[electricmanscott]

I don't see anything wrong with the customer installing a fixture or fan after the job is closed out. Most electricians pre-wire for fans.

But the switches, receptacles, exhaust fans, appliances and smoke detectors must be installed for a final. If the customer doesn't want to purchase expensive fixtures or fans I will just stick up a plastic keyless fixture as a light source for the room but it will be switched.

But once I get a job to where it will pass the final a homeowner is not working under my permit ( it's closed out ) and whatever he does is his own business.

I should have been more clear. I have no problem with the HO doing finish but NOT on my permit. I would never even consider letting somebody working under my permit/license.

As I said, I'd get a contract for the work I am going to to, the rough, and the permit would be for the same.

 

[readydave8]

Back to the OP - I would be very hesitant about agreeing to that situation - however - if you pull a permit and do the rough only - you would then have the permit removed from your name and the job terminated at that point. I would write a letter to the building dept stating that you only rough wired the job and were not responsible for the wiring as you did not finish installing the wiring. The homeowner would then be responsible to get another permit for the finish and have that inspected or hire another electrician to finish. I've taken over a finish before for an electrician that was fired from a job - new permits, letters written - etc.

this is the answer.

 

[iwire]

Back to the OP - I would be very hesitant about agreeing to that situation - however - if you pull a permit and do the rough only - you would then have the permit removed from your name and the job terminated at that point. I would write a letter to the building dept stating that you only rough wired the job and were not responsible for the wiring as you did not finish installing the wiring. The homeowner would then be responsible to get another permit for the finish and have that inspected or hire another electrician to finish. I've taken over a finish before for an electrician that was fired from a job - new permits, letters written - etc.

this is the answer.

I agree, that is.

 

[iwire]

I would never even consider letting somebody working under my permit/license.

That makes more sense because I read your earlier post like you would let the homeowner work on your permit.