Bathroom 12/3

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Re: Bathroom 12/3

Matt I didn't think Jim was being sarcastic?
I think he was just saying it is a not a bad idea when you have allot of loads in a bathroom.

As far as his other post also being sarcastic? I have never thought this. He deals with the every day life we all do and if there was any problems with his post I'm sure the moderators would have said somthing as they have in the past to others. So I don't think we need to take the roll of the moderators when not asked to. ;)
 
Re: Bathroom 12/3

Originally posted by roger:
Allen,
No breaker tie since not on same yoke but the lighting side fed a closet flouresent and it was energized and you as the dumb electrician opened the switch box tested the hot and found it clear but grabed the neutral an got that ballast load
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might you be the dumb electrician you are talking about?

I don't see your argument, a qualified person will know the proper way to do this.

A novice shouldn't have their paws in the wiring.

Roger
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Re: Bathroom 12/3

Roger why do you find the need to continualy needle me all I was saying is that is some times things are wired in a a way that are not usually done and that the potential of a QUALIFIED person can get hurt by the potential of a neutral load.I take offense with your remark and the moderators of this professional forum should have removed them before others were able to read them.We have this forum to express our ideas.Not our individual sarcastic remarks :D Other titled it would be a EE that has never had a day of field experience,one who doesn`t know the difference between what theory says and what actually happens in the real world :D i am what i call a by the seat of my pants ELECTRICIAN.Came into the trade at 17 am 48 now,but I for one bestow every bit of knowledge I have learned over the years on the 100`s I over see.The only DUMB question is the one never asked ;)
 
Re: Bathroom 12/3

Allen, I just used your own term in my response to your scenario of someone opening a loaded neutral, if that struck a nerve sorry.

I actualy tried to point you to the specific code article and section in my first post after some others had question your first reply in this thread.

A multi-wire circuit is perfectly safe, and needs no handle tie between the breakers as long as it is not supplying a single yoke.

You say you wire a number of houses, do you not use multi-wire circuits, and if you do, are you tyeing the handles in all of these circuits?

What was the EE comment about?

Roger
 
Re: Bathroom 12/3

I was told that the GFCI will not trip if wired on a 12/3 as described. Thats why I asked this question, and it seems that was an incorrect answer. I wired many multiwire circuits as a 12/3
and used a GFCI, but I always pigtail the nuetral.
 
Re: Bathroom 12/3

kiss,

The GFCI, when in the receptacle like you asked about in your original question in this thread, will only be "looking" at the currents on the neutral and hot conductors as they pass through the sensing core inside the receptacle.

The important notion, to me, concerns the current that flows through this hot and neutral. . .it is directly a function of whatever load is running on the load side of the receptacle. When the hot and neutral currents become different from each other by more than 3 to 5 milliamps, the GFCI trips.

The GFCI sensing core only "sees" the current of the load connected downstream from the GFCI. The currents on the line side are invisible to the sensing core. So the currents that are in the multiwire neutral splice point are not sensed by the GFI.
 
Re: Bathroom 12/3

Allen, no sweat, we all have those days.

Roger
 
Re: Bathroom 12/3

Kiss,
If you want to use a 12/3 or a 14/3 for a home run, that is fine. Multiwire feeds are ran all the time. Multiwire circuits are used everywhere in residential, commercial, and industrial, and are valuable to the contractor. However, be mindful of your installation practices.
AllenWayne was trying to point out the potential of harm to the electrician in opening that neutral. There are many problems associated with opening a neutral of a Multiwire branch circuit. This is why we ALWAYS pigtail/splice neutrals and DO NOT use the device to make our connection/splice.
I once pulled a device out of a wall wired this way. Upon removing, the backstab popped free.
Lady Vacuuming VS Television.... The vacuum won. :(
Qualified Electricians are qualified for a reason. As much as AllenWayne was correct, a Qualified Electrician should recognize and take proper precautions before opening ANY Neutral, much less a Multiwire branch circuit Neutral. In this case, I should have turned off the circuits first... instead I bought a TV.
Recently, TDFCHIEF posted a thread - NEC >> Meaning of "Phase" - located in this forum. It sparked an interesting conversation of replies. Read through this for a some insight into phases, neutrals, grounded, ungrounded, multiwire... It may help a bit, and it may confuse a bit, too. Either way it is still interesting.
 
Re: Bathroom 12/3

The reason i spoke up was actually from a service change I did back when I was a baby electrician :eek: Yes should have checked , but I learned to respect the force more than I did :eek:
 
Re: Bathroom 12/3

I am aware of all the potential problems of a multi wire circuit if opened up by someone who doesn't know. But as mentioned in this thread there clearly is nothing in the NEC to prohibit running a 12/3 to a bathroom and feeding it as I described.
 
Re: Bathroom 12/3

240.4(d) states that ampacity of #12's (in this instance) cannot exceed 20A. However, that doesn't say a minimum. If you wanted to put that other circuit(lighting) on a 15A breaker, that is fine.
 
Re: Bathroom 12/3

Originally posted by milwaukeesteve:
Multiwire circuits are used everywhere in residential, commercial, and industrial, and are valuable to the contractor. However, be mindful of your installation practices.
AllenWayne was trying to point out the potential of harm to the electrician in opening that neutral. There are many problems associated with opening a neutral of a Multiwire branch circuit.
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Bottom line is no one should be opening any conductors of an energized circuit. :eek:

That has nothing to do with installation practices.

If I run multiwire branch circuits then someone after me opens up a live neutral burning up appliances it is only that persons fault, not the fault of the circuit. :p
 
Re: Bathroom 12/3

Bob, it would be nice if you'd put a bright red warning lable on you multiwire neutral connections for us. :D
 
Re: Bathroom 12/3

I for one do all my residential troubleshooting live.Just how i learned it and how i do it.Is it right well it is for me :( Can`t tell you how many calls we have had from homeowners that said switch won`t turn off ceiling fan.We wire in 3 wire/1 switch constant hot.Is it our fault they got blasted when they went to the big O and decided to install thier own fan ???Now add a multi wire circuit and thier are two phases involved well the potential for disaster is 10 fold.The argument that only qualified individuals should stick thier hands in electrical boxes is invalid.Open a door and someone will walk in :D
 
Re: Bathroom 12/3

Originally posted by allenwayne:
Can`t tell you how many calls we have had from homeowners that said switch won`t turn off ceiling fan.We wire in 3 wire/1 switch constant hot.Is it our fault they got blasted when they went to the big O and decided to install thier own fan ???
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Stupid homeowners!

Now, why didn't the switch shut off the fan? :confused:
 
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