Bathroom 20amp ckts

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andrew

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If there is a thread for this already please point me in the right direction.

I am having a difficult time convincing my fellow inspectors that all receptacle circuits in the bathroom must be 20amp. (or am I the one whoe needs convincing) :D This is my logic,

210.11(C)(3) Says at least one 20amp branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom reeptacle outlet(s). The exception refers to 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2) with the exception for (A) refering you back to 210.11(C)(3) and to me saying the outlet(s) will be 20amp.

210.8(A)(1) says they have to be GFI protected. ALL OF THEM.

210.52(D) lets you know where the required location is for a basin.

I have failed a particular Electrical rough for not having all the Receptacles in the bathroom on 20amp ckt or ckts. Due to my interpretation above.

Am I missing something??

Thanks for your help
Always wanting to make a fair and honest inspection, :wink:
Andrew
 
IMO, once you've fulfilled the code minimum requirements for the bathroom, you would be free to cover the walls with 100 (GFCI protected) recepticals on 15A circuits.

This sounds a lot like the supplementary 15A receptical in a kitchen discussion from a couple of years ago.
 
That wasn't quite the answer I was looking for Jim but hey it might happen in Tampa but not here in Naples. So I guess I'll put it another way.
Can 15amp circuits supply bathroom receptacles above and beyond 210.11(C)(3)? Code article please.

Thank You,
Andrew
 
I was wiring in Naples for almost 20 years.Look at 210.11 c 3
it say such circuitS will have no other outlets.It is bit gray but i vote no to anything but 20 amp circuit.Receptacles can be 15 amp.
 
20 amp circuit to feed ALL recticals in bathrooms. All recepticals on GFI. Recticals can be 15 amp. No other outlets on this circuit. Lighting on seperate 15 amp circuit.
 
If you've already met the minimum with the one required 20 amp circuit, why would additional circuits be required to be 20 amps? Just like in the laundry, you can have some 15 amp receptacle circuits as long as you have fulfilled the required ONE 20 amp circuit.
 
You need a law degree to understand nec.First you must look at what it says then what it didnt say.Did it actually say no 15 amp circuits for bathrooms ? No.It did say we need at least 1 20 amp circuit.But why would you not use the one that already has gfci protection and is 20 amps ?
 
Laundry is the same. At least one 20 amp circuit. You can have more but why? this circuit shall have no other outlets. Read the definition of outlets and recepticals. This is what causes the confusion.
 
For the laundry, if there's a 110V dryer (they exist) - it would make sense.

Key point is to look up a level and notice the section this occurs in -- "required outlets". A dozen extra 15A circuits with 100 recepticals on them in a bathroom are not part of "required outlets".
 
Andrew-
I agree with you on this. My take on it, and what we approve here, is that any circuit that supplies bathroom receptacle outlets must be a 20 ampere circuit. I think 210.11(C)(3) is pretty plain about this.

Key point is to look up a level and notice the section this occurs in -- "required outlets".
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Actually, the heading for this section is Branch Circuits Required. 210.52 is the section which deals with required receptacle outles. While 210.52(D) only requires one receptacle outlet, if you choose to install more, the provisions of 210.11(C)(3) require them to be on a 20 ampere branch circuit or circuits.
 
Just went through this for the first time in quite a while. Here's what I get from it. 210.11(C)(3) -- All receptacle outlets in a bathroom must be on 20 amp circuit(s). So you can have several outlets in a bathroom so long as they are on 20A circuits and those circuits cannot have other outlets besides the receptacles in the bathroom! Now this can encompass more than one bathroom if you desire. So you can have, at a minimum, a single 20A circuit supplying the receptacles in every bathroom in the house. However, if you supply more than one bathroom with that single circuit, then you cannot utilize the provisions of the exception to 210.11(C)(3). Some folks like to feed the bathroom lights from that same circuit. This is only allowed if that 20A circuit feeds only that one bathroom. If you have lots of outlets in a very large bathroom, you can also have multiple 20A circuits in that bathroom. None of those circuits can feed any outlet outside of the bathroom(s). No 15A circuits allowed for bathroom recepts!
Now, in my opinion, if you want to feed the bathroom lighting from a 15A circuit that feeds other parts of the house that is fine!
Some contractors like to save money by feeding a GFCI recept in one bathroom and then running the GFCI protected circuit to all other bathroom recepts. This has generated several service calls for us when the owners bathroom recepts won't work due to a tripped GFCI in another bathroom!!! Our receptionist has even helped a few homeowners avoid a service call by having them check the GFCI in other locations!!
 
While 210.52(D) only requires one receptacle outlet

Doesn't that depend on the countertop. If you have a 10' countertop with a small basin in the center, wouldn't that require a minimun of 3 outlets? 1 on each side of basin & 1 in adjacent wall. :?:
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andrew said:
. . . I'll put it another way. Can 15amp circuits supply bathroom receptacles above and beyond 210.11(C)(3)?
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Yes. I agree with tonyi:
tonyi said:
IMO, once you've fulfilled the code minimum requirements for the bathroom, you would be free to cover the walls with 100 (GFCI protected) receptacles on 15A circuits.
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At the same time, I disagree with this:
Cavie said:
20 amp circuit to feed ALL receptacles in bathrooms.
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The word "ALL" does not appear in 210.11(C)(3).
And I disagree with this:
mvannevel said:
My take on it. . . is that ANY (my emphasis, not mvannevel's) any circuit that supplies bathroom receptacle outlets must be a 20 ampere circuit. I think 210.11(C)(3) is pretty plain about this.
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The word "ANY" does not appear in 210.11(C)(3).

When the code uses the phrase "at least one," and doesn't add a restrictive phrase like "shall supply ALL," then once the minimum is in place, any additional do not have to follow the same rule.

That is how I read the words in the book. That said, however, I think the right thing to do is to use 20 amp circuits only. I believe that was the code authors' intent, and I believe the homeowner will be happier (i.e., less likely to have overcurrent trips when hairdryers are plugged in).
 
I've got to disagree with you on this one Charlie.
charlie b said:
When the code uses the phrase "at least one," and doesn't add a restrictive phrase like "shall supply ALL," then once the minimum is in place, any additional do not have to follow the same rule.

That is how I read the words in the book.
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210.11(C)(3) makes no reference to the number of receptacle outlets required to be served by this circuit, only that ...at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s). I guess we could parse that phrase (and most of the others in the book) and decide that the absence of the phrase "shall supply all" infers a minimum that can be met and anything more than that is outside of this requirement. But the way I read this section, it's all inclusive. These are Bathroom Branch Circuits (just as the heading of the section states) and they supply receptacle outlets. This, to me, says plainly that if you have a branch circuit which supplies bathroom receptacle outlets, it must be a 20 ampere circuit. That's also my opinion for the kitchen small appliance branch circuits. So I guess we'll agree to disagree about both of these.

I do agree with you on this though:
charlie b said:
That said, however, I think the right thing to do is to use 20 amp circuits only. I believe that was the code authors' intent, and I believe the homeowner will be happier (i.e., less likely to have overcurrent trips when hairdryers are plugged in).
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So at least we can agree on part of it. I really can't see any instance where you'd want a circuit that wasn't 20 amps or that included loads from elsewhere in the house to supply a receptacle in the bathroom.

As to Larry's question-
dlhoule said:
Doesn't that depend on the countertop. If you have a 10' countertop with a small basin in the center, wouldn't that require a minimun of 3 outlets? 1 on each side of basin & 1 in adjacent wall.
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210.52(D) only requires that the receptacle be within 3' of the outside edge of each basin and that it be on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop. So in your example of a 10' top with a small basin in the center, only one is required so long as it is with 3' of the edge of the basin. You could have 2 or 3 basins on that top and as long as your recept isn't more than 3' from the edge of any of them, you could get by with one. Not a good idea, but possible all the same.
 
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