Bathroom afci protection ?

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mbrooke

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While part of me thinks they are wrong, part of me wishes they were right.

I was totally convinced that AFCI's were useless because of their inability to detect series arcs, but the Eaton video, as hard as it is to admit, was pretty convincing.

I will be doing my own testing come a nice spring day.

Research is expensive.

Please send money.

:D

And in some cases they will actually trip on a series arc, they certainly do under UL1699 testing. But here is where this leaves reality. That tester is not copper to copper. Its carbon to some other metal metal like bronze. The reason being that a copper to copper simulated arc is difficult if not impossible to sustain. Everything you see in regards to AFCIs is not a reflection of reality but rather magic act. They want you to believe what physics simply does not allow.


From a well known paper:

http://combinationafci.com/resources/doc_ieee_combination_afci.pdf


These simulators use
two opposing electrodes, like those of a carbon arc lamp.
Rather than use two carbon electrodes, Simulator 1 used one
carbon (graphite) electrode and one phosphor-bronze
electrode. Simulator 2 used one carbon and one copper
electrode. Both simulators created a continuous low current
arcing condition. The current, after each zero crossing, is zero
for a few milliseconds until an arc re-strike occurs. This restrike
transient produces a high frequency “noise” component
in the arcing current waveshape.
UL evidently theorized that Products 1 and 2 series arc
detection algorithms could be masked by normal continuous
series arcing, such as from the brushes of an electric drill.
Also a normal EMI filter used in power strips etc. could filter
the high frequency current component, so the AFCI circuit
breaker would not see the arcing event. UL was correct in
their assumptions. Products 1 and 2 were tested and failed
both masking tests that indicate their technology was based on
looking for high frequency noise.
Why didn’t UL use copper-copper electrodes, instead of
the odd combinations of carbon and phosphor-bronze and
carbon-copper?
Unfortunately UL didn’t address this important question, and
thus the validity of the use of these “arc-simulators” is
questionable. Further the author believes that UL, by
introducing their use, inadvertently gave credibility to AFCI
manufacturers’ claim that their product will respond to a series
arcing event.
The use of strange materials like phosphor-bronze and
carbon, conductive materials not used in house wiring, might
be explained but not justified, as follows:
 Copper-Copper: This combination and copper-steel are the
only valid electrode choices. If UL wanted to demonstrate
“real world” series arc detection they could have used
copper. UL may have tried copper but found they only got
sparks, not the continuous low current arcing that Products
1 and 2 probably needed to trip.

The reason for a simple spark is explained by a century old law of physics. A person
named F. Pashchen in 1889 published a law which sets out
what has become known as Paschen's Law. He determined
the relationship between breakdown voltage, the gap
between two metal plates, and the pressure. With air as the
gas, the minimum voltage is 327V, as shown in Fig. 5. The
peak of a 120VAC sine wave is only 170V, and thus
continuous low current arcing is, by a law of physics, not
possible with copper-copper.
Thus claims that a
Combination AFCI will respond to arcing at a break in a
conductor or a loose connection flies in the face of a law of physics.

All the tests you see are legit, provided we wired with carbon and other metals besides copper and aluminum.
 

mbrooke

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The NFPA seems to think that about 50%-75% of all electrical related home fires are caused by arc faults. The annual averages are around 48,000 fires and 450 deaths per year:


Correct, and ESFI also claims 30,000 home fires are from arc faults https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-SBly_2bPQ . However, it has yet to be proven, or someone at least evidence shown supporting those numbers. To this day I have not seen a single shred of evidence or a published paper in partially demonstrating arcing was behind half of all electrical fires. In fact most fires are not through investigated, so the cause in most cases is actually unknown even if a fire official writes up "electrical in origin".



Key is, what are they calling an "arc fault"? If I touch a bare hot wire to a bare EGC or bridge it with a screw driver, is this an arc fault? If I did it with a nail?
 

mbrooke

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AFCI (fire prevention) and GFCI (shock prevention) protection serve different purposes.

If they do, then what is GFP doing in AFCIs?



With AFCI protection, you are not just protecting the appliance, but the entire branch circuit that supplies the disposal. The typical wiring method used to supply the 120-volt, 15-and 20- ampere branch circuits in a dwelling is NM cable. NM cable, regardless of what it supplies, is subject to damage that may result in an arcing fault. This could be a nail, screw, sharp edge, overdriven staple, etc.


I over drive a nail or staple. It damages the insulation, current "arcs" to the EGC. What happens to a GFCI breaker in that case? And yes I am confident it will go to the EGC, as UL testing has actually shown the EGC gets involved when they did it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...1biVaE8H4LDkgg&bvm=bv.112064104,d.cGc&cad=rja





I am not comparing the importance of AFCI protection to equipment grounding. Each were an evolution in the development of the code to make the final installation safer. While they are not comparable, each does it part to reduce the hazard associated with electricity.

Again, why is GFP in AFCIs? The two are very comparable.


The mitigation of hazards usually takes efforts on several fronts. This is true for all industries where human safety is of concern.

True solutions to human life safety are simple, not complex.
 

GoldDigger

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I might, but as mentioned would guess most are homes at least 10 -15 years old or older, with no AFCI's. When homes with AFCI's installed become that age, and assuming they do prevent fires, what assurance do we have the AFCI's will still be functional at this time when their features are needed the most?
By the time the AFCI breakers need replacing, there is a good chance but no certainty that there will be AFCI breakers that actually work. :angel:
 

don_resqcapt19

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I might, but as mentioned would guess most are homes at least 10 -15 years old or older, with no AFCI's. When homes with AFCI's installed become that age, and assuming they do prevent fires, what assurance do we have the AFCI's will still be functional at this time when their features are needed the most?
Of the dwelling unit fires that are said to be of electrical origin, 85% of them occur in dwelling units that are at least 20 years old.
 

don_resqcapt19

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By the time the AFCI breakers need replacing, there is a good chance but no certainty that there will be AFCI breakers that actually work. :angel:
How would we know they need replacing?...they are not fail safe devices. When the electronics fail they function as standard thermal magnetic breakers. Yes I know the occupant is supposed to test the AFCIs monthly but we all know that doesn't happen.
 

don_resqcapt19

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AFCI (fire prevention) and GFCI (shock prevention) protection serve different purposes. With AFCI protection, you are not just protecting the appliance, but the entire branch circuit that supplies the disposal. The typical wiring method used to supply the 120-volt, 15-and 20- ampere branch circuits in a dwelling is NM cable. NM cable, regardless of what it supplies, is subject to damage that may result in an arcing fault. This could be a nail, screw, sharp edge, overdriven staple, etc.
...
And with an installation that is code compliant, it would be a very rare case where a GFCI or GFP type of protection would not clear the fault long before the AFCI did(assuming you believe that AFCIs can really detect arcing faults).

The AFCI does not even look for a fault unless the current exceed 5 amps.

The GFCI trips at ~5 mA...current that is a 1000 times less than when the AFCI even starts to look for a problem...the GFP that was in all of the original AFCIs had a 30 to 50mA trip...still at least 100 times less than when the AFCI starts to look for a fault.

I can't imagine any type of damage to NM that would have enough current for the AFCI to look for an arcing fault that would not also be a ground fault.
 
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