Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

[michael]

I have a bathroom vanity with double sinks.I installed a gfi receptacle to the left of one sink and one gfi protected receptacle in the middle of the two sink.There is a bathtub perpendicular to the double vanity sinks.A short wall seperates the vanity from the tub.The wall is 40 inches tall and the same depth as the vanity bottom cabinet.I did not install another receptacle to the right of the second sink because I felt it was to close the bathtub.The electrical inspector told me I needed to have one there.He sited Section 210.52(D).Is there anywhere in the code book that requires a receptacle to be a certain distance away from bathroom tub.Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[hbiss]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

Well, 210.52(D) says that you need a receptacle within 3 feet of the sinks. Sounds to me like the one in the center of the two sinks is all you need unless the sinks are more than six feet apart. Since you installed one receptacle for each sink I don't know what more you can be expected to do.

-Hal

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

The tub / shower space clearance is as specified in 406.8(D). Basically, the outlet can't be inside the tub / shower space.

 

[resistance]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

--- [It is customary for electricians to put two gfci protected receptacles when two sinks are present], but you can--and we have--put one GFCI receptacle between two sinks, if that GFCI protected receptacle meets code requirements.

NEC 210.52 (D) states: If there is more than one washbasin, a receptacle outlet is required adjacent to each basin location. If the basins are in close proximity, one receptacle outlet between the two basins "MIGHT" satisfy this requirement.

I guess the AHJ can make a call on rather the receptacle satifies the requirement.

[ November 13, 2004, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: resistance ]

 

[physis]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

410.4(D) Defines the bathtub and shower zone.

406.8(C) Say's you can't have a receptacle in the bathtub and shower space.

What is the bathtub and shower space?

Edit: One receptacle between the two sinks is acceptable if it's within three feet from the edge of either basin.

[ November 13, 2004, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

Sam,

Using the example in Michael's opening question above, I believe the short, 40 inch tall wall seperating the vanity from the tub has two sides. The wall facing the tub is in the tub space with respect to a receptacle outlet. The wall facing the vanity is not in the tub space.

The tub zone of 410.4(D) applies to certain luminaires.

 

[iwire]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

Originally posted by resistance:
NEC 210.52 (D) states: If there is more than one washbasin, a receptacle outlet is required adjacent to each basin location.

That is not exactly what 210.52(D) states, at least not in 2002 or 1999.

2002 NEC

210.52(D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one wall receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop.

Originally posted by resistance:
If the basins are in close proximity, one receptacle outlet between the two basins "MIGHT" satisfy this requirement.

It has to pass as long as the one receptacle outlet is within 36" of the outside edge of both basins.

 

[resistance]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

What do you mean that's not what it states? Make note: That if you have the soft cover 2002, then you will not get as much detail as the hard cover. You have to remember iwire, that the inspector has the right to dictate a ruling based on National, or locality code requirements. In this case, the AHJ may have ruled according to the NEC 210.52(D) explanation of 210.52 (D)--which is in the NEC's 2002 hardcover (The explanation is what I presented. To give light to what the AHJ may have been ruling on. What you wrote is indeed what the 2002 code has written, but if you have the 2002 hardcover, read further, and you will see the explanation, which clearly states what I wrote). So what I stated is fact!

What I stated is true Michael. It is perfectly fine to place a receptacle between two sinks, if the receptacle meets code requirements, and if the AHJ feels it satifies article 210.52(D). {NEC goes futher to say that: If the basins are in close proximity, one receptacle outlet installed between the two basins might (key word=Might) satisfy this requirement.} I'm not saying that you can't put a receptacle between the two sinks. I clearly said this is a practice, and is something we do. But, the AHJ can rule against it, due to article 210.52(D) explanation.

 

[iwire]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

Originally posted by resistance:
What do you mean that's not what it states? Make note: That if you have the soft cover 2002, then you will not get as much detail as the hard cover.

Are you talking about the difference between the code book and the hand book?

The handbook is not "the code"

Originally posted by resistance:
You have to remember iwire, that the inspector has the right to dictate a ruling based on National, or locality code requirements.

Only if the local codes are adopted into law.

Bottom line, what you wrote:

NEC 210.52 (D) states: If there is more than one washbasin, a receptacle outlet is required adjacent to each basin location.

Is not in the NEC, it is in your words or the words of the handbook authors but it is not code.

The way you write it makes it sound like each basin is required to have it's own dedicated receptacle outlet.

That is not the case the NEC only requires an outlet within 36" of the basin edge, one sink or more it does not matter.

 

[roger]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

resistance,

Make note: That if you have the soft cover 2002, then you will not get as much detail as the hard cover.

where did you get that idea? The NEC is the same no matter what format it is in.

You have to remember iwire, that the inspector has the right to dictate a ruling based on National, or locality code requirements.

This is not a right he has, it's his job, but 210.52(D) is worded the way Iwire posted it, and this is the same as in any book or CD.

which is in the NEC's 2002 hardcover (The explanation is what I presented. To give light to what the AHJ may have been ruling on. What you wrote is indeed what the 2002 code has written, but if you have the 2002 hardcover, read further, and you will see the explanation, which clearly states what I wrote).

Why don't you type what the hard cover says so we can see what you are talking about. Are you talking about the handbook? If so anything besides the code wording is opinions and not enforcible.

{NEC goes futher to say that: If the basins are in close proximity, one receptacle outlet installed between the two basins might (key word=Might) satisfy this requirement.}

Where does it say " Might", it is not used in the article.

Roger

 

[roger]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

Bob!!!

Roger

 

[resistance]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

I hope test takers are reading this.

Seeing that we are in this together, I'm not going to bash anyone. I will give what is written in the hardcover NEC -AKA Handbook. NEC 210.52D: In dewelling units, atleast one wall receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900mm (3ft) of the outside edge of each basin. the receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop.


Make note: That the Hardcover (AKA handbook) has explanations. Which "Can" be enforced "if" the AHJ see fit. I "NEVER SIAD THAT WHAT THE AHJ RULED ON IS RIGHT. I JUST SAID THAT WHAT HE RULED ON CAN BE DUE TO THE EXPLANATION PRESENTED IN THE 210.52(D) EXPLANATION.

The explanation: Section 210.52(D) requires one wall receptacle in each bathroom of a dwelling unit to be installed adjacent (within 36 in.) to tje washbasin. This receptacle is required in addition to any receptacle that may be part of any luminaire or medicine cabinet. If there is more than one washbasin, a receptacle outlet is required adjacent to each basin location. If the basins are in close proximity, one receptacle outlet installed between the two basins might satisfy this requirement.

It's perfectly understandable that you guys are against what is clearly written in the NEC. Just make note, that I'm not against what you guys are saying. I'm clearly writting what can be enforced by the AHJ--if he/she so chooses.


iwire, it's great that you can present the fact that an AHJ can only enforce a ruling if it's adopted into law. Yet isn't this true for any law.

To apprentices: Make not that an AHJ can rule according to what's written in the NEC, and laws adopted by locality. But, this does not mean you can't agrue the ruling. Clearly, I'm being misunderstood. Heck, we put receptacles in between two sink often--if the customer wants to save money, and if it meets code requirements. But, what the explanation presents on article 210.52(D) is fact. If in close proimity--how can you argue against truth.

Example: If you have two sinks, and you plan to put a receptacle between the two, but noticed that the receptacle is out of proimity to meet NEC 210.52(D), then what makes what was written wrong.

By the way. The Hardcover does give more information than the softcover. But I should have said this: Although it gives more information (information being pictures, and explanations), the articles will not change in any form, regardless of which NEC book you have.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

resistance,

Go to the first pages of the "hardcover" code, the pages before the Preface. There you will find the quote I am posting from my electronic version of the same.

Notice Concerning Code Interpretations: This ninth edition of the National Electrical Code? Handbook is based on the 2002 edition of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code. All NFPA codes, standards, recommended practices, and guides are developed in accordance with the published procedures of the NFPA by technical committees comprised of volunteers drawn from a broad array of relevant interests. The handbook contains the complete text of NFPA 70 and any applicable Formal Interpretations issued by the Association. These documents are accompanied by explanatory commentary and other supplementary materials.


The commentary and supplementary materials in this handbook are not a part of the Code and do not constitute Formal Interpretations of the NFPA (which can be obtained only through requests processed by the responsible technical committees in accordance with the published procedures of the NFPA). The commentary and supplementary materials, therefore, solely reflect the personal opinions of the editor or other contributors and do not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA or its technical committees. (Note: Bold & italics together is my emphasis - Al)


?Registered Trademark National Fire Protection Association, Inc.

 

[roger]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

resistance, the Handbook is not the NEC and is not enforcible.

Read the disclosure in the front of the book.

I'll post it later, got to go now.

Roger

 

[roger]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

Thanks Al, now I won't have too.

Roger

 

[iwire]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

I will stick with reading the actual code to make my decisions.


From the Handbook

Notice Concerning Code Interpretations: This ninth edition of the National Electrical Code? Handbook is based on the 2002 edition of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code. All NFPA codes, standards, recommended practices, and guides are developed in accordance with the published procedures of the NFPA by technical committees comprised of volunteers drawn from a broad array of relevant interests. The handbook contains the complete text of NFPA 70 and any applicable Formal Interpretations issued by the Association. These documents are accompanied by explanatory commentary and other supplementary materials.

The commentary and supplementary materials in this handbook are not a part of the Code and do not constitute Formal Interpretations of the NFPA (which can be obtained only through requests processed by the responsible technical committees in accordance with the published procedures of the NFPA). The commentary and supplementary materials, therefore, solely reflect the personal opinions of the editor or other contributors and do not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA or its technical committees.

Look I am sorry if I came off abrupt with my first post.

It is just that you specifically said "The code states....". Well the 'code' does not say that.

We talk about a lot of code here and if someone posts a specific code section it is done so word for word, from the code section, not the handbook commentary.

Bob

 

[iwire]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

Guess I did not have to post that either.

resistance Welcome to the forum forget that your getting off to a rough start.

The members will be glad to help you out with the NEC but you will have to keep an open mind.

Bob

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

Hey Bob

Yes Resistance, Welcome.

This is a place that is alive with opinion as we wrestle with what the Code means as we apply it, day to day. A big part of this discussion is finding where the code ends and opinion takes over.

 

[roger]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

Welcome resistance, you will find a world of knowledge here that at times will squash beliefs you have lived with and have quoted as gospel.

Roger

 

[charlie]

Re: Bathroom vanity GFI protected receptacles

I JUST SAID THAT WHAT HE RULED ON CAN BE DUE TO THE EXPLANATION PRESENTED IN THE 210.52(D) EXPLANATION.

Resistance, the local AHJ does not ever have the ability to enforce the NEC Handbook. If he attempts to do that and is taken to task, he must be overturned and reprimanded. Only the governing body that has the authority to adopt the NEC has the authority to make amendments to it.

The explanations in the NEC Handbook are written by people who make every effort to explain the rules in a simple manner to help the user. They may put their own feelings and understanding into the explanation and give a mistaken interpretation. With that said, most of the time, the interpretations are correct.

The Code Making Panel members attempt to make their intent clear and their intent may be explained in the Handbook. However, once the rule is made, the words must stand on their own. That is why the ROP and ROC are printed. You have an opportunity after the ROP to send in comments to the Panel to correct their language.