Battery Charger Load Causing High Voltage in Outlets and at Load Center

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Joethemechanic

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Hazleton Pa
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Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
Per your last paragraph, the only 240V load is the 6,000 BTU HVAC which is on a 20A circuit. At this point, I don't believe we can change the pad center to 3 phase and use a transformer just for the single 240V load though.
I believe he wasn't talking about installing 3 phase in this thing. Do you have the option to connect the HVAC for 120v If not you can always use 120 at the panel and a small step up transformer just for the HVAC load. If all your branch circuits were 120v with all single breakers, it wouldn't matter if you plugged your shore power into 120/240 single phase or 120/208 from a WYE source. All the branch circuits would still get 120 volts
 

mechwizard1

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Location
Vero beach, FL
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Mechanical Engineer
The systems have all shipped but we still need to resolve the issue so we will be setting up a bench test to try and work out the issue. The fix will then have to be done on-site in a few weeks.

If we check N-G we have approximately 60V but it does fluctuate. If we are getting the extra voltage from the Neutral, can we put a diode in the circuit to eliminate this? If so, where should it go and what should it be rated for?

More information: before they left yesterday we wired the battery charger for 240V since it can handle 100-240V; no change. We also tried a different battery charger (different mfr); without the batteries connected the overvoltage was not present, when we hooked up the batteries we then had the overvolatage issue present.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
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Electric motor research
Is the 60V N-G voltage measured when on generator power or on 208V shore power?

60V N-G is _expected_ from the particular transformer being used when supplied from a 208/120V wye source. This IMHO a code violation and a safety hazard from using this transformer.

I60V N-G when operated on generator power indicates a bonding issue.

-Jon
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
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More information: before they left yesterday we wired the battery charger for 240V since it can handle 100-240V; no change. We also tried a different battery charger (different mfr); without the batteries connected the overvoltage was not present, when we hooked up the batteries we then had the overvolatage issue present.

Wait...you connect a 240V L-L load, and it causes the voltage on the 120V circuits to climb?

You have 5 separate 120V receptacle circuits. When the battery charger is connected, what is the voltage on all of these circuits? (In a 'loose neutral' situation, a large 120V load is expected to cause about half of the 120V circuit voltages to drop, and half to climb. But you are describing a 240V load changing the 120V voltages to change.)

-Jon
 

mechwizard1

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Location
Vero beach, FL
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Mechanical Engineer
Is the 60V N-G voltage measured when on generator power or on 208V shore power?

60V N-G is _expected_ from the particular transformer being used when supplied from a 208/120V wye source. This IMHO a code violation and a safety hazard from using this transformer.

I60V N-G when operated on generator power indicates a bonding issue.

-Jon
measured on 208V shore power coming out of the transformers.

There was mention of an isolation transformer previously. Can you provide details for this?
 

mechwizard1

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Location
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Mechanical Engineer
Wait...you connect a 240V L-L load, and it causes the voltage on the 120V circuits to climb?

You have 5 separate 120V receptacle circuits. When the battery charger is connected, what is the voltage on all of these circuits? (In a 'loose neutral' situation, a large 120V load is expected to cause about half of the 120V circuit voltages to drop, and half to climb. But you are describing a 240V load changing the 120V voltages to change.)

-Jon
L1 to N climbs to 160V and L2 to N goes down to 99V.

All of the circuits being affected accordingly, depending on if it is L1-N or L2-N
 

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
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Hazleton Pa
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Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
measured on 208V shore power coming out of the transformers.

There was mention of an isolation transformer previously. Can you provide details for this?
Something like this. I'm not saying this one is the best choice or the best price, but it is the type you need.

 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
measured on 208V shore power coming out of the transformers.

There was mention of an isolation transformer previously. Can you provide details for this?

The transformer specified is what is known as an 'autotransformer'. This means that there is a single set of coils electrically connected to both the primary and secondary sides. An autotransformer has significant benefit that much less copper and steel are used for the same output capacity, especially if small voltage changes are involved. A transformer that takes 208V (L-L) up to 240V (L-L only) is a perfect application for an autotransformer.

The downside of the autotransformer is that there is no isolation from input circuit to output circuit. If the input circuit is grounded, then the output circuit is also grounded, but via the input circuit. Grounding of the output circuit can cause a short circuit, or might change the characteristics of the system. @synchro described this problem back in post #7; while the transformers specified in the schematic will do a great job of converting 208V to 240V, the 'neutral' that they derive is going to be at an elevated 60V relative to the (usually grounded) neutral of the 208V source. On top of what he described, because the particular transformer selected does a bad job of deriving a neutral, when the 'secondary' neutral point was grounded, what ended up happening was that the output L-N voltage got boosted to 136V. ( @mechwizard1 noted this voltage issue in post #32, when the generator G-N jumper was in place. Without the G-N jumper, each transformer half was fed with half of the supplied 208V, boosting 104V to 120V. With the G-N jumper in place each transformer half was fed with 120V, and boosted it to 136V.)

An isolation transformer is simply a common transformer with separate primary and secondary coils. There is no electrical connection between the two, just the magnetic coupling that transfers power. The grounding of the secondary of such a transformer is completely independent of the supply grounding.

An example of such a transformer is https://www.hubbell.com/acmeelectri...-Phase-120208240277---120240V-15kVA/p/1655263

This would take the 208V input and convert it into a 120/240V single phase output. The secondary would need to be appropriately grounded, meaning that the neutral of the secondary would be electrically connected to ground at some point, possibly at the transfer switch. Secondary grounding of an isolation transformer will not have the effect of boosting the output voltage.

I've not done a load calculation, so don't know if the example transformer is large enough or too large; I just wanted to show you an example of such a transformer. I believe that Larson has similar.

-Jon
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
L1 to N climbs to 160V and L2 to N goes down to 99V.

All of the circuits being affected accordingly, depending on if it is L1-N or L2-N

One leg climbing and the other dropping is a classic symptom of an open neutral. However this happens when a large 120V load is connected, with the loaded leg voltage dropping and the unloaded leg voltage climbing.

What you describe here is something else, where the total voltage climbs (240V to 259V) and the voltage change is caused by a 240V load, which shouldn't do anything to the neutral.

My guess at this point is that as part of trying to figure out your system, you've completely unbonded it from grounded metal of the system. The battery chargers probably use high frequency switching, and high frequency coupling to ground is completely messing up any voltage measurements. But without further measurements I couldn't confirm this. If I were working this problem, my next test would be to get the system on a solidly grounded 120/240V single phase supply (say the existing generator with the N-G bond replaced) and see if the voltage issues occur.

-Jon
 

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
I should have read the specs on that other one

I believe this one is isolation and will permit heavier neutral loading

 

mechwizard1

Member
Location
Vero beach, FL
Occupation
Mechanical Engineer
One leg climbing and the other dropping is a classic symptom of an open neutral. However this happens when a large 120V load is connected, with the loaded leg voltage dropping and the unloaded leg voltage climbing.

What you describe here is something else, where the total voltage climbs (240V to 259V) and the voltage change is caused by a 240V load, which shouldn't do anything to the neutral.

My guess at this point is that as part of trying to figure out your system, you've completely unbonded it from grounded metal of the system. The battery chargers probably use high frequency switching, and high frequency coupling to ground is completely messing up any voltage measurements. But without further measurements I couldn't confirm this. If I were working this problem, my next test would be to get the system on a solidly grounded 120/240V single phase supply (say the existing generator with the N-G bond replaced) and see if the voltage issues occur.

-Jon
We have tested it with the on-board 120/240V generator, with N bonded to G, and there is no issue.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
We have tested it with the on-board 120/240V generator, with N bonded to G, and there is no issue.

I think this nails the answer. You want to replace the transformer with one that has the exact same output characteristics as the generator.

My strong _hunch_ at this point is in line with post #49:

Because of the (IMHO incorrect) choice of 208:120/240V transformer, you were forced to remove necessary N-G bonding. Without this bonding the voltages are unstable, and the battery charger pushes things over the edge. (See post #9, with the charger unplugged the voltages are barely in spec and quite unbalanced, with the charger plugged in the voltages are out of spec.)

Another possibility is that the problem is caused by the high impedance neutral of the existing transformer configuration.

A test using the ungrounded 120/240V generator would tell us which of the above is the actual cause of the issue, but this is not necessary since the solution is the same. We don't need a precise diagnosis if we know the cure in any case.

With a solidly bonded 120/240V source, the system works just fine.

The solution in both cases is to replace the transformer with one that provides a solidly bonded 120/240V secondary. Three plausible transformers have been suggested, but correct selection requires knowing the 120/240V power requirements.

-Jon
 

Joethemechanic

Senior Member
Location
Hazleton Pa
Occupation
Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
The solution in both cases is to replace the transformer with one that provides a solidly bonded 120/240V secondary. Three plausible transformers have been suggested, but correct selection requires knowing the 120/240V power requirements.

He really has to replace that transformer anyway. Even if he managed to get the voltage stable, it still ends up with N and G with a 60 V potential between them. There is no way I would even energize a circuit like that. That's the kind of thing that gets people electrocuted
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
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Owner/electrical contractor
I came in late to this thread, and somebody may have covered this, but if the op is using buck/boost transformers in a wye configuration, and the neutral is open, it will boost the line to line voltage on the unbalanced leg. The 120 in would be raised, which would also raise the boost voltage. Reconnect it in a delta configuration, the output voltage would be less, but if it stabilizes, that is the problem.
 

ruko

Member
Location
Mid USA
I too have noticed a voltage rise in the 120v volt supply when I use my plasma cutter and compressor. The compressor is 120v and the cutter is 240v. If the neutral is open how would the compressor run? What should my concern be?

Thank you,
R
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
A high resistance neutral will cause the voltage drop/rise symptoms while still allowing loads to run.

Resistance can come from normal wire resistance or from a poor connection. Voltage drop calculations can be used to approximate the expected neutral voltage change during normal operation.

Jon
 
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