Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

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electricrulez247

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This is a installation of ours that has been called into question by AHJ. I can not see the code violation may be I'm missing something.

This is a New SFD with (4) Bedrooms.

All outlets in B/R #2 and B/R #3 are supplied with (1) 15A AFCI protected circuit and do not serve any other outlets (total sqft of both B/Rs=338sqft) No problem here.

All outlets in B/R #4 are supplied with (1) 15A AFCI protected circuit and do not serve any other outlets (total sqft B/R #4=225sqft) No problem here.

All outlets in the Master B/R are supplied with (1) 15A AFCI protected circuit and also supply Here's the problem.
(5) Christmas/Holiday switched receptacle outlets located on the interior of the house under (5) windows on the front side of the house. (These recpt outlets are for the Christmas candles folks put in the windows at Christmas with a single pole switch for turning all (5)of these recpt outlets on and off without having to go around plugging and unplugging all the candles daliy) (1) of these recpt outlets is located under a window in the dining room. (this recpt is in addition to the ones required by 210.52 as well another 15A branch circuit feeding the lighting outlets in that room) This should apply:
210.52(B)(1)Exception No.1 In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched recptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permited.
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Another (1) of these recpt outlets is located under a window in the study. (this recpt is in addition to the ones required by 210.52 as well another 15A branch circuit feeding the lighting outlets in that room)Another (1) of these recpt outlets is located under a window in the garage. (this recpt is in addition to the one required by 210.52 and is a GFCI recpt per 210.8(A)(2) as well another 15A branch circuit feeding the lighting outlets in the garage)Another (1) of these recpt outlets is located under a window in the Master B/R. The another (1) of these recpt outlets is located under a window in B/R #3. (this recpt is in addition to the ones required by 210.52)(total sqft of Master B/R=308sqft)

The AHJ says you must add the sqft of each room that contains one of these "Christmas Outlets" into the 3VA used in the Master B/R. Thus saying when adding the sqft of the Dining Room and Study and B/R #3 you would be well over 600sqft or 1800VA per sqft for a 15A ckt. He stated that in order to "meet code" the "Christmas Outlets" would need to be on a dedicated 15A AFCI circuit with GFCI protection on the outlets requiring GFCI protection. He gave no code references.

My thought is that as long as you have the required outlets 210.52 requires as well as the lighting outlets required by 210.70 and are only putting in addition to these outlets the "Christmas Outlets" under windows for candles. Then I have not found the code reference that would not allow you from putting a "Christmas Outlet" supplied from the Master B/R under every window in the house.(as along as they are in addition to thoose required by 210.52 and meet any other special requirements)

Sorry for the long post. Just trying to get all the detail the 1st time.
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

I am confused by the va per sq ft part.
Where does it say that we have to calculate the sq footage of a bed room to determine the number of outlets that we on a circuit?
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

I think your AHJ is wrong.

I may not garnish a great deal of support for the following statement, but I submit that the "3 VA per square foot" is not related in any way to the amount of load you are permitted to connect to a 15 amp branch circuit. It's not a bad rule of thumb for designing a house, but it is not a code requirement.

The "3 VA per square foot" is only used in the service or feeder calculation process. You use that number to make sure you are giving the house enough power to handle its minimum needs. But there is nothing in the code language that says a 15 amp branch circuit can not be used to cover more than 600 square feet of living space.

Try this to counter the AHJ's argument: Suppose each bedroom was 500 square feet. Suppose you fed the outlets (lights and receptacles) with four 15 amp AFCI circuits. Suppose "circuit #1" fed all receptacles on the North walls of each bedroom. Let "circuit #2" fed all receptacles on the South walls of each bedroom. Let "circuit #3" fed all receptacles on the East walls of each bedroom. Let "circuit #4" fed all receptacles on the West walls of each bedroom. Divide the lights and smoke detectors evenly among the four circuits.

What you have is "circuit 1" feeding outlets in four bedrooms, meaning that it feeds 2000 square feet of space. The other three also feed 2000 square feet of space. Is this a violation of the same non-existent rule that the AHJ is using to call your installation a violation?
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

220.5 (J) Dwelling Occupancies. In one-family, two-family, and
multifamily dwellings and in guest rooms or guest suites of
hotels and motels, the outlets specified in (J)(1), (J)(2), and
(J)(3) are included in the general lighting load calculations
of 220.12. No additional load calculations shall be required
for such outlets.

I read this section to say that I can put as many outlets on a circuit in these areas as I want. under windows, in the ceiling, where ever in the floor.
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

charlie b,

Thanks for that example.
Try this to counter the AHJ's argument: Suppose each bedroom was 500 square feet. Suppose you fed the outlets (lights and receptacles) with four 15 amp AFCI circuits. Suppose "circuit #1" fed all receptacles on the North walls of each bedroom. Let "circuit #2" fed all receptacles on the South walls of each bedroom. Let "circuit #3" fed all receptacles on the East walls of each bedroom. Let "circuit #4" fed all receptacles on the West walls of each bedroom. Divide the lights and smoke detectors evenly among the four circuits.

What you have is "circuit 1" feeding outlets in four bedrooms, meaning that it feeds 2000 square feet of space. The other three also feed 2000 square feet of space. Is this a violation of the same non-existent rule that the AHJ is using to call your installation a violation?
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I have the same thoughts as you on the 3VA per sqft. But, (3) separate counties/juridistions in my area are enforcing that 220.12 as meaning that you cannot have more than 3VA X 600sqft = 1800VA on a 15A circuit. Strange though is they are only doing this "calculation" on the B/R's AFCI ckts. I have heard this from some other ECs who try to put (3) B/Rs on (1) 15A AFCI ckt. The AHJ have stated to them it is o.k. to have 5 B/Rs at 599sqft on (1) 15A AFCI ckt But (1) B/R at 601sqft would require (2) 15A AFCI ckts.

I cannot get an answer on how they are concluding that this is what 220.12 means.

Sure hope somebody knows.
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

Originally posted by electricrulez247: I cannot get an answer on how they are concluding that this is what 220.12 means.
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That is because it comes from their own creative minds. The phrase "branch circuit" does not appear in 220.12. Article 220 is about calculations, not about designing branch circuits.

You could try laying the following on their laps:
Charlie's Rule* for Reading the NEC

It doesn't say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say. If by chance you are an instructor, it doesn't say what you have been teaching that it says. If by chance you are an inspector, it doesn't say what you have been enforcing.

Then what does it say? It says what it says! So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, and don't ask anyone what it says. Go back and read it again, and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time.

If you don?t like what it says, then get involved and try to change it. In the process, you might discover that it says exactly what it should be saying.


* Copyright ? 2005, Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle, WA.
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Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

The only problem I would have is the receptacle in the dinning room. I don?t believe that this would fulfill the requirement for the exception to 210.70

I at one time would have debated that after the requirements of 210.52(B) was fulfilled that as many 15 amp receptacles as you wanted could be installed in the dinning room but my opinion has been changed for me.

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
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It clearly states that ALL wall and floor receptacles shall be served by the small appliance circuits.
The exception is for a replacement of the required lighting outlet by a switched outlet, not the addition of any switched outlet at will.
:)
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

I suppose this one has already been built. But if it was still in the rough-in stage, how about putting these special receptacles above, and not below, the windows. Specifically, put them 5.5 feet above the floor. As far as the owner is concerned, it should not matter if the cord goes up the wall or down the wall, in order to reach the outlet. But as far as 210.52 is concerned, a receptacle that high does not count as being among the required receptacles, and need not be on the 20 amp SA circuit.

Or am I just getting too creative for my own good again? :D
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

The AHJ says you must add the sqft of each room that contains one of these "Christmas Outlets" into the 3VA used in the Master B/R. Thus saying when adding the sqft of the Dining Room and Study and B/R #3 you would be well over 600sqft or 1800VA per sqft for a 15A ckt. He stated that in order to "meet code" the "Christmas Outlets" would need to be on a dedicated 15A AFCI circuit with GFCI protection on the outlets requiring GFCI protection. He gave no code references.
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He must be quoting some foreign code. A 15 amp bedroom circuit can have an unlimited amount of receptacles. As long as the number of circuits required by the 3va/sq ft is met. They aren't even required to be evenly loaded.
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

Mike,

Now I do not think it is possible to have one of these "Christmas Outlets" at standard wall recpt outlet height in the Dining Room
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

I disagree with your inspector and do not see a CODE problem with your installation.

Personally, we use a dedicated circut for the holiday receptacles.

I'm not sure that I have a problem in the dining room either.
IMO.
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

Was he confused and and trying to quote other than dwelling unit receptacle requirements 180va per receptacle 120v(15amp)divided by 180va ?
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

Originally posted by triphase:
Was he confused and and trying to quote other than dwelling unit receptacle requirements 180va per receptacle 120v(15amp)divided by 180va ?
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That's what I thought. He's confused the dwelling requirements with the non-dwelling requirements.
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

Back to the dining room issue. These outlets need to be on a small appliance branch circuit. But I cant find anything that says that they cannot be switched.
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

Originally posted by electricrulez247:
The AHJ says you must add the sqft of each room that contains one of these "Christmas Outlets" into the 3VA used in the Master B/R. Thus saying when adding the sqft of the Dining Room and Study and B/R #3 you would be well over 600sqft or 1800VA per sqft for a 15A ckt.
Click to expand...
That's nuts! A 24' x 30' (720 sq.ft.) room, which is a linear 108' of wall, would require only 9 receoptacles (with doors ideally placed).

He's saying that 9 receptacles is too much for a single circuit. Additionally, he's also ignoring the contribution of ceiling lighting, which should suffice for his "second circuit".
 
Re: Bedroom outlets o.k. to serve other outlets

On the "Christmas Outlet" in the Dining Room. If it is on a small appl ckt then it could not supply "chirstmas outlet(s)" in B/Rs or other rooms.
210.52(B)(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
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quote: 210.52(B)(1)
-------------------------------------------------
(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
-------------------------------------------------

Futhermore, 210.70(A)(1) Exeption No. 1 would not apply either since the "christmas outlet" is not in lieu of the lighting outlets.

I can't see a NEC way of having the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit Christmas Outlet switched on a single pole switch with any other christmas outlets in other rooms.

I'm I wrong?
 
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