Bedroom?

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scnkapc

scnkapc

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Northern Kentucky
If a house is being built and there is a room that is labeled on the prints as being a den/study and there is a clothes closet in that same room, is it considered to be a future bedroom? Can an inspector make you install a smoke detector in that room? If so, what classifies as a bedroom? Is it in the electrical or building code?
 
I have a similar question, with a twist. I have a "3-bedroom" house, according to the real estate people. But I am using 2 of the "bedrooms" as offices. Both have closets, and one has a bathroom. The house is over 50 years old, and there are no prints.

I am having some major electrical work done tomorrow. Can the Inspector force me to install AFCI for all three "bedrooms," or can I declare this to be a "1-bedroom house," and just install one AFCI?
 
Re: Bedroom?

scnkapc said:
If a house is being built and there is a room that is labeled on the prints as being a den/study and there is a clothes closet in that same room, is it considered to be a future bedroom? Can an inspector make you install a smoke detector in that room? If so, what classifies as a bedroom? Is it in the electrical or building code?
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The smoke alarm rule is not in the electrical code therefore the electrical inspector can not enforce the rule.
 
IMO. If it's a house, and there's ever a possibility that the room could be used as a bedroom. Why not put the smoke detector in the room? What's the cost of a smoke detector in relationship to a life? Same with an AFCI.
I think most local AHJ (building or electrical)are left with their discretion on the purpose of the room both present and future, and would ask themselves a similar question.
 
Whether a room is a bedroom is up to the AHJ since the NEC doesn't define what a bedroom is.

One jurisdiction where I occasionally work lists the following on their Website:

Any room that may be used as a bedroom by its basic design will be required to have AFCI protection, regardless of its stated use. Studies, dens, sewing rooms and similarly named rooms that could be used for bedrooms will be considered as bedrooms regardless of their present use or designation by the owner.
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Re: Bedroom?

scnkapc said:
If a house is being built and there is a room that is labeled on the prints as being a den/study and there is a clothes closet in that same room, is it considered to be a future bedroom? Can an inspector make you install a smoke detector in that room? If so, what classifies as a bedroom? Is it in the electrical or building code?
Click to expand...

IMO, if the room is not designed as a bedroom (and the plans in your case indicate that it is not), then rules that apply to a bedroom can not be enforced. As an inspector, I handle these cases by pointing out to the owner, that by adding a smoke detector and egress window at construction time when these additions are easy to make, more options for that room are made available down the road. Most of the time, they take my suggestion, sometimes they don't.

jwelectric said:
The smoke alarm rule is not in the electrical code therefore the electrical inspector can not enforce the rule.
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I don't agree with that. The job of the electrical inspector is to inspect the electrical work. He can enforce any rules that apply to that electrical work, just as the electrician is obliged to follow all of the applicable rules whether they are found in the NEC or elsewhere. Maybe this varies among different parts of the country, but in Utah, the same law that adopts the NEC adopts the other building codes. All of them may have application to a particular building project.
 
Re: Bedroom?

eprice said:
The job of the electrical inspector is to inspect the electrical work. He can enforce any rules that apply to that electrical work, just as the electrician is obliged to follow all of the applicable rules whether they are found in the NEC or elsewhere.
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I agree with Mike (gotta stop doing that! :twisted: ). If there is no smoke detector in a bedroom, then the Electrical Inspector cannot fail you for not having the circuit supplying the smoke detector protected by an AFCI. The question of whether or not to include a smoke detector is not an NEC question.
 
Any room in a house could be a bedroom. What if a person chooses to sleep in an unfinished basement? Perhaps they would call it their bedroom. As stated before, the NEC is silent on the definition for a bedroom.

My answer, for what it's worth, would have to be based on the proposed use of the room as listed on the approved construction documents. In the absence of approved building drawings I would have to rely on the assumed use of the room if it would meet all applicable building codes to allow it to be used as a bedroom then I would think it should be wired as such. There are places in the NEC (health care facilities, hazardous locations to name a couple) that tell us that as inspectors or electricians we must rely on someone elses determination for the use of an area to apply the proper wiring methods. I believe that the same would apply for the use of a room in a dwelling.

The NEC, as far as I know, does not mandate the the location of or requirement for a smoke detector. The NEC considers how the device is to be connected to the premises wiring.

Theres my $.02 :)

Pete
 
Around here the electrical inspector does inspect for smokes. Also any room that has a closet and a privacy door is considered a bedroom.
 
The smoke alarm rule is not in the electrical code therefore the electrical inspector can not enforce the rule.
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Remember your electrical inspector could be working under the building code official and he can enforce anything delegated to him by the BCO[/quote]
 
Let me see if I got all of this straight. The code enforcement official that does the electrical inspection has crossed trained in all four trades and works for the building inspection department.

While he is doing the electrical inspection he turns down the electrician for the following reasons:

1) need to install smoke alarms but I can?t find it in the electrical code
2) need to install bath vents but I can?t find it in the electrical code.

Sounds like the code enforcement official has got everyone in his area trained to his way of thinking.

When I get turned down for one of the above reasons I tear up the rejection slip and pretend I have never saw one. Bottom line, give me a section that I have violated or stay at home. If the inspector is going to play inspector then have the knowledge of one.
:)
 
Around here, if it has a closet (regardless of how small) it is a bedroom. It gets a smoke and an AFCI.

Throwing a tantrum doesn't change it.

Without a definition, then we are at the mercy of the AHJ. Generally, the call makes sense.

Generally, around here, the inspector is cross trained. Does the fact that the NEC doesn't address firewalls exempt us from obeying those rules? No. Same goes for bedrooms, IMO.
 
The NEC only addresses the switching locations for stairways but the IRC addresses top landing and bottom landing or one over the section of the stairway. And yes my BCO requires that I know that section of the IRC and site that section in a correction order, If I site a change in placement of lights for the stairs and site the IRC section and you tear that up because it came from an ?electrical inspector and not a building inspector. Well good luck on your final.

The same is true for the smokes in question my BCO requires that I know the correct section of the IRC and again if I request a change in placement of a smoke or addition of a missing smoke based on the IRC or any NFPA standard adopted by my jurisdiction. You ignore that change based on the fact that it was sited by an electrical inspector and not the building inspector, well again good luck on your final.

Both the building department and the electrical department work under the BCO he will except reports from ether department equally. If you don?t like my decision take it up with the BCO but don?t think you can ignore it,
 
As far as the question if it is or is not a bed room we base that on construction documents. Not on weather it has or does not have a closet.
 
George

300.21 Spread of Fire or Products of Combustion

Yes the NEC addresses fire walls.

No the NEC does not address which room is a bedroom
No the NEC does not address the placement of smoke alarms
No the NEC does not address bath fan vents

When the inspector comes out to my job and he thinks that the room should have AFCI protection or a smoke alarm he addresses the general contractor. Should either the AFCI or smoke alarm be left out because the general contractor said that the room was something different it is on him to argue the point with the inspector or give me a lot more money to come back and install them.

As to the fan vent I have never had but one problem with an inspector. It didn?t take but one call to his office to stop the electrician from being turned down it the vents were not installed when he made his inspection.
He admitted that the electrician was not allowed to do HVAC work without a HVAC license.
:)
 
David

Not knowing the laws that pertain to the great state of Pennsylvania I will not step out on a limb here but I will make this statement as it concerns my area:

Just because the inspector holds certificates in different trades or the jurisdiction in which he works has him doing different trades does not give him the right to pick the electrician to turn down for things that are not in the scope of the NEC or that are amended by his jurisdiction.

When I run into an inspector that tries to usurp his powers of holding my job just because he can we will end up standing in front of the board that issues him his certificate. At this point he had better be able to prove that the IRC or any other NFPA document he would like to cite was adopted in to the electrical code for his jurisdiction.
 
jwelectric said:
Let me see if I got all of this straight. The code enforcement official that does the electrical inspection has crossed trained in all four trades and works for the building inspection department.

While he is doing the electrical inspection he turns down the electrician for the following reasons:

1) need to install smoke alarms but I can?t find it in the electrical code
2) need to install bath vents but I can?t find it in the electrical code.

Sounds like the code enforcement official has got everyone in his area trained to his way of thinking.

When I get turned down for one of the above reasons I tear up the rejection slip and pretend I have never saw one. Bottom line, give me a section that I have violated or stay at home. If the inspector is going to play inspector then have the knowledge of one.
:)
Click to expand...

Are you saying that because the NEC doesn't mandate smoke alarms in the bedroom, you don't have to install them?? And because it doesn't mandate bath vents you don't have to install them?? What about fire alarms? the NEC doesn't mandate those. Who installs those items in your area if you don't? Who inspects them? How many different inspectors do you want to deal with on each project?

In Utah most jurisdictions do not have the luxury of hiring electrical inspectors, building inspectors, plumbing inspectors, etc. Most inspectors here are combination inspectors who inspect all aspects of the project, and maybe my perspective on this issue is influenced by that fact. If I wrote you up for not installing a smoke alarm in a bedroom, I would cite IRC Section R313.

The NEC does not regulate who inspects electrical work. That is up to the AHJ. The IRC places the authority for making inspections upon the building official, but gives him the authority to appoint others to do the inspection. In a jurisdiction where electrical inspectors are hired, it is the hiring authority who has the right to determine what codes they are to enforce. You ask "Let me see if I got all of this straight. The code enforcement official that does the electrical inspection has crossed trained in all four trades and works for the building inspection department." In my area and most of Utah, the answer is yes. As far as the cross training goes: Just as an electrician needs to have knowledge of other codes besides the NEC in order to do his work, so should the inspector who inspects that work.

charlie b said:
The question of whether or not to include a smoke detector is not an NEC question.
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I agree with that statement, but if the jurisdiction has adopted the IRC w/o amendment, the electrician is still required to install them where the IRC dictates, and if the electrical inspector's job responsibilities include enforcing aspects of the IRC that pertain to electrical work, then he can require those smoke detectors mandated by the IRC. Those job responsibilities are determined by the AHJ, not by the NEC. I suspect that most job descriptions for electrical inspectors would be written so as to give the inspector the responsibility of inspecting for all electrical related code requirements, not just the NEC.
 
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