Bedroom?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Here again we have a failure to communicate which I find typical with some inspectors.

In every state that I have had dealings with it is the JOB of the electrical inspector to see that the installation meets the requirements of the adopted electrical code. It is NOT the JOB of the electrical inspector to turn down an electrician for things that does not pertain to the adopted electrical code.

The placement of smoke alarms is not mandated by the National Electrical Code nor is the installation of bath fan vents. The IRC is a building code not an electrical code.

It is not the responsibility of the electrical contractor to mandate which room of a dwelling unit will be a bedroom and which ones will not be used as a bedroom. This is up to the person who is building the dwelling unit.

Should I install two smoke alarms, one in one room and one just outside that room on a one level house that has 50 rooms and the electrical inspector turned me down I would not call him or his director. My call would be to the ?Q? board to file a complaint against him or her.

If this dwelling unit needed more smoke alarms then the building inspector needs to contact the general contractor about the requirement of more not the electrical inspector turning down the electrician.
Most crossed trained inspectors don?t even know which book that they are to inspect from to start with. The IRC is a building code and the NEC is an electrical code, end of story.

:)
 
I agree with Mike, too. In MA, we are required to cite in writing what article an installation is in violation of. I would never fail an electrical inspection for violating a building code.
 
j_erickson said:
I agree with Mike, too. In MA, we are required to cite in writing what article an installation is in violation of. I would never fail an electrical inspection for violating a building code.
Click to expand...

Here reflects the difference between an inspector and a code enforcement official.

Mr. Erickson you make me proud. :) :) :) :)
 
In the great state of Pa. the electrical inspector is a construction code official working under the Building Code Official, It is neither the building inspectors or the electrical inspector?s responsibility if smoke detectors are missing in required areas or which areas need smokes. The whole project is the responsibility of the BCO. And he receives reports from Construction code officials or inspects the job himself which ever he is comfortable with.
In my case the BCO has delegated his inspection responsibilities for smokes to the inspectors working under him, he does not care if it is the electrical inspector that reports the violation or if it is the building inspector that reports the volition. All he cares bought when it is time for the job to be finialed by him the job meets min code standards.
He would not expect the electrical inspector to be concerned about a building element that does not involve building wiring. Since the building wiring is supplying the smokes will be looked at by he electrical inspector to him it only makes sence if a smoke is missing the electrical inspector would report that violation.
Nothing becomes a violation if it?s corrected. It is seldom that the BCO is involved with correcting potential violations. If a contractor has a dispute with a construction official over an issue as stated in this thread the construction official would usually address this to the BCO.
 
I agree with Mike. Unfortunatly getting the local field inspectors to accept this is another story. Also they do make 12 volt smoke detectors for all the readers here whose spouses have ever kicked them out of the house for the evening and they end up sleeping in their car. :p
 
Our inspectors call it a reciprical agreement in which although the requirement is not an NEC issue it is a building code issue.They will turn down an electrical inspection if smokes are not installed as required.We also install them in ROOMS that have a closet not a common area but a room with a door that can be used in the future as a bedroom.I have always thought this to be off keel since a den that does not have a closet can also be used as a bedroom as well.
They will also turn down an inspection usually on the final if the meter has not been installed within the requirements of the POCO.
Rather than get into where smokes are required and that they are not installed even though it is not an NEC requirement when a building final is done and a required smoke is not installed then it will fall on us to retrofit in order for a CO to be issued,so in essence we as electricians must also know other codes to properly preform our jobs.
 
The way I see it on this forum, for some issues as long as there are different people, there will be different OPINIONS.

My advice (if you do not know what to do), is contact the building department and ask before you install. This way you do not have to spend precious time (which equates to money) taking people in front of boards and all that stupid stuff. I like to spend that time fishing. We do not have to like installing smoke detectors, just install them and "keep on trucking".

BTW: smoke detectors do save lives.... HMMM!
 
Also, I don't have a problem with an electrical inspector inspecting for smoke detectors. In MA, a building official is allowed to accept a report on an inspection from a "qualified agency".

I have a problem with failing the electrician on an electrical inspection. If electrical inspector finds deficiency with smoke detectors, I feel the building inspection should be red tagged, not the electrical inspection.
 
Well, it seems that the main "bone of contention" here is over the electrician being "failed". Not so much that the smoke detector rule is being enforced, but who it is being enforced upon. Our perspective on this issue is influenced by the different way things are done in different parts of the country. Here, when I do an inspection, I am inspecting the project as a whole for compliance with code. Any corrections noted apply to the project, not to any one contractor. The report goes to the general contractor, who has over all responsibility for the project. The sub contractors work, under contract, for him. Who's fault it is that each item is on the list, is between the general contractor and the sub contractors. My report does not assign responsibility. I just want to see the corrections made when I come back. I am not going to get involved in any arguments between the general and his subs. My job is to inspect the project for compliance with code. And Mike, when I do this, I inspect from all of the books, because the project has to comply with all of the codes
 
What you are saying above is not what you said here;

I agree with that statement, but if the jurisdiction has adopted the IRC w/o amendment, the electrician is still required to install them where the IRC dictates, and if the electrical inspector's job responsibilities include enforcing aspects of the IRC that pertain to electrical work, then he can require those smoke detectors mandated by the IRC. Those job responsibilities are determined by the AHJ, not by the NEC. I suspect that most job descriptions for electrical inspectors would be written so as to give the inspector the responsibility of inspecting for all electrical related code requirements, not just the NEC.

Again the ?electrical? inspector can not enforce anything other than the electrical code as adopted in their jurisdiction no matter what is written in the IRC. The IRC is a building code not an electrical code.
:)
 
jwelectric,

Well, it seems that the main "bone of contention" here is over the electrician being "failed". Not so much that the smoke detector rule is being enforced, but who it is being enforced upon. Our perspective on this issue is influenced by the different way things are done in different parts of the country. Here, when I do an inspection, I am inspecting the project as a whole for compliance with code. Any corrections noted apply to the project, not to any one contractor. The report goes to the general contractor, who has over all responsibility for the project. The sub contractors work, under contract, for him. Who's fault it is that each item is on the list, is between the general contractor and the sub contractors. My report does not assign responsibility. I just want to see the corrections made when I come back. I am not going to get involved in any arguments between the general and his subs. My job is to inspect the project for compliance with code. And Mike, when I do this, I inspect from all of the books, because the project has to comply with all of the codes
Click to expand...

This is a statement about how inspections are done here, written for the purpose explaining how our different experiences can influence our perspective on the issues discussed in this thread.

I agree with that statement, but if the jurisdiction has adopted the IRC w/o amendment, the electrician is still required to install them where the IRC dictates, and if the electrical inspector's job responsibilities include enforcing aspects of the IRC that pertain to electrical work, then he can require those smoke detectors mandated by the IRC. Those job responsibilities are determined by the AHJ, not by the NEC. I suspect that most job descriptions for electrical inspectors would be written so as to give the inspector the responsibility of inspecting for all electrical related code requirements, not just the NEC.
Click to expand...

This is an expression of my opinion of how electrical inspection might work in an area where there are specific electrical inspectors. Why should the two be the same? We don't have specialized electrical inspectors here.

Again the ?electrical? inspector can not enforce anything other than the electrical code as adopted in their jurisdiction no matter what is written in the IRC.
Click to expand...

That would depend upon what duties have been given to the electrical inspector by the AHJ would it not? Can you document your statement with a legal reference, or are you just saying it because "that is how you like it", or "that is how it has always been done around here"?

The IRC is a building code not an electrical code.
Click to expand...

You keep saying that. So, why does the IRC waste 73 pages on sections dealing specifically with electrical installations?
 
jwelectric said:
Again the ?electrical? inspector can not enforce anything other than the electrical code as adopted in their jurisdiction no matter what is written in the IRC. The IRC is a building code not an electrical code.
:)
Click to expand...


Please let me know who appointed you Lord God King over duties of all electrical inspectors everywhere so I can inform The Chief Building Official here. :p :D

eprice
You summed it up nicely. That's how it works here. When I write a correction, I don't care if the owners landscaper fixes it, as long as it is code compliant.
 
Mike said Again the ?electrical? inspector can not enforce anything other than the electrical code as adopted in their jurisdiction no matter what is written in the IRC.

Your reply That would depend upon what duties have been given to the electrical inspector by the AHJ would it not? Can you document your statement with a legal reference, or are you just saying it because "that is how you like it", or "that is how it has always been done around here"?

The answer to your questions as to why I make this statement can be found at this web site
http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering/COQB/engineering_coqb_home.asp

Mike said The IRC is a building code not an electrical code.

Your reply You keep saying that. So, why does the IRC waste 73 pages on sections dealing specifically with electrical installations?

In my copy of the IRC I can?t find any rules as to how an electrical installation is to be made. I can?t find where to size wire, raceways, enclosures, overcurrent, ect. I can not find anything other than how the electrical relates to the building codes.

In North Carolina, one of the best track records as to inspections in the nation, the trades are required to be licensed. The license holder of the trade is the only person that can request an inspection. The code enforcement officer for that trade will inspect that trade and report the results to that license holder.
The building inspector can not inspect the electrical, plumbing or mechanical unless he is trained in that field and in which case the report will be given to each trade.

In my state the electrical inspector is required to give the section that is in violation when he finds one. Should this violation be from any thing other that the North Carolina Electrical Code (the NEC with two amendments) then this violation is required to be pointed out to the respective trade, ie smoke alarms are a building violation.
 
sandsnow said:
Please let me know who appointed you Lord God King over duties of all electrical inspectors everywhere so I can inform The Chief Building Official here. :p :D
Click to expand...

No one has appointed me anything other than someone who is posting in this forum just as you are doing

sandsnow said:
eprice
You summed it up nicely. That's how it works here. When I write a correction, I don't care if the owners landscaper fixes it, as long as it is code compliant.
Click to expand...

So in Ca. is is okay for the landscaper to make electrical installations?
Is it any wonder that the code enforcement officials are the way they are in your state?
 
Hi Mike;
smoke alarms are a building violation.
So in Ca. is is okay for the landscaper to make electrical installations?
Is it any wonder that the code enforcement officials are the way they are in your state?

I'm curious, who installs smoke detectors in your fine State?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Larry,
It would depend on the type of system that was being installed as to who would do the installation.

As a general rule the electrician does the installation as well as the installation of the water heater, air handler and the outside unit.

Should the water heater, air handler or heat pump/air conditioner be sized wrong or improperly installed the electrical contractor is not held responsible nor is he turned down.

The same applies to the smoke alarm. Should the builder tell me that a certain room is not a bedroom and not to install a smoke alarm then it is between him and the building inspector not me and the electrical inspector.

Just as with the water heater, air handler and outside unit all the electrical inspector is to look at is the wiring installation going to that unit and not worry me with if it is in the right place and sized correctly.
:)
 
Another example similar to this (in commercial buildings) is Exit lights, we (in NC) must install them and correctly wire them compliant with the NEC as they are shown, but any error or ommision in placement or quantity would be cited by the Building Inspector, Fire Marshall, or maybe Department of Insurance and would be an extra for the EC.

The red tag would not be to the EC, it would be to the Builder who would in turn send it on to the Architect/Designer for further instruction.


Roger
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top