Best Solar+Storage option in the market?

[PVfarmer]

Not cheap, but $150 for a day pass isn't bad considering the OP's limitless budget...a UL company, probably worth trusting in my book.This is the company that supplies the data included (for free) with NREL SAM.

What we offer:

• Regional, high-fidelity resource maps and data for site screening and early-stage feasibility studies. Products include mean wind speeds, speed-frequency distributions, directional distributions, and diurnal and seasonal patterns, as well as capacity factor maps for selected turbine models. GIS and CSV formats.
• Time-series files, including virtual met masts (VMMs) for climate adjustments (MCP) and preliminary energy estimates. Order data from multiple sources including global reanalysis and (for more demanding sites) custom models. For consistent and reliable energy estimates, VMMs are adjusted to our resource maps.
• Micrositing maps and resource grids to support plant design and energy estimates. Access the same advanced resource modeling we use to design optimal layouts and perform bankable energy estimates. (Onsite measurements are required for the highest accuracy.) GIS, CSV, and WRG/WRB formats.

https://dashboards.awstruepower.com/subscriptions/windnavigator


VALIDATION

Based
on
this
procedure,
the
mean
bias
of
the
high
‐
resolution
wind
maps
is
found
to
be
very
small
or
virtually
zero
for
most
regions.
https://www.awstruepower.com/assets/Wind-Resource-Maps-and-Data-Methods-and-Validation1.pdf

 

[electrofelon]

I am not going to further debate the degree to which wind maps and models can be used for site analysis. I suspect none of us have any first hand experience with this or are in the business.

Let me continue with my experience with small wind to illustrate the way I see the economics. I have a 90 foot tower installed, a very very good wind site (top of a mountain whose ridge chain has been targeted by commercial wind farms several times), and I already have a wind turbine. I have recently transitioned to being on grid, and even though I have everything pretty much ready to go, I am not going to hook the wind turbine back up again. Instead I am putting my money into grid tied solar.

 

[PVfarmer]

the way I see the economics.

Instead I am putting my money into grid tied solar.

It's too bad it didn't work for you- however, the OP with the customer with a "wind fetish" and "limitless budget"...wants wind in their system.
Good for you on the GT solar- it is a cash cow.

In fact, the OP's customer wants wind and solar.

If I had the $ to spend, I'd get a Bergey 10kW turbine with a couple of SMA Windy Boys, 4 Sunny Island 6048s and an 11kW Sunny Boy with ~13.5kW of Kyocera or LG panels.
Why not throw in a waste vegetable oil filter/burner backup generator system too?

Edit: But I don't have the $$- however a 1kW $4500 Bergey will break even in 6 8 or 12 years, which works for me personally.

 

[electrofelon]

If I had the $ to spend, I'd get a Bergey 10kW turbine with a couple of SMA Windy Boys, 4 Sunny Island 6048s and an 11kW Sunny Boy with ~13.5kW of Kyocera or LG panels.
Why not throw in a waste vegetable oil filter/burner backup generator system too?

Edit: But I don't have the $$- however a 1kW $4500 Bergey will break even in 6 8 or 12 years, which works for me personally.

I would probably get a bergey too. They are one of the few players that is consistantly around. SWWP, gone; Proven, gone; Eoltec Scirocco, gone.......

 

[ggunn]

Seems accurate where I live.

Evaluated how, exactly?

 

[PVfarmer]

Evaluated how, exactly?

I can't see any reason to answer that- you have made up your mind that wind is no good, and I have no interest in arguing with you.

There's 82,000 MW of wind powering 25 million homes in 41 states plus Guam and PR.
There's over 20,000 MW in your state (TX leads the US).
RI has more than NJ, DE and MD combined.

So yeah, some spots aren't great for wind, but your idea that 99% of them are no good is just plain silly.
http://www.awea.org/Resources/Content.aspx?ItemNumber=5059

 

[jaggedben]

...
There's 82,000 MW of wind powering 25 million homes in 41 states plus Guam and PR.
There's over 20,000 MW in your state (TX leads the US)...[/url]

This is pretty irrelevant. We've been talking about small wind connected to a residential service. How much of those numbers qualifies as such?

 

[ggunn]

I can't see any reason to answer that- you have made up your mind that wind is no good, and I have no interest in arguing with you.

That is of course not remotely true. Large Wind is very much a part of the energy picture here in Texas and nowhere have I said different. I question how you came to this conclusion:

Originally Posted by jaggedben
Do you state this from experience?

Wind resource is basically about average wind speed, and has almost nothing to do with maximum wind speed.



You said: Seems accurate where I live. How about you?

"Seems accurate" evaluated how? I guarantee you that before the wind developers in West Texas spent the first dollar on hardware, they did wind studies for at least a year. They didn't just stand out in a field with a wet finger in the air and decide to plunk down megabucks based on how the wind resource "seems".

The charlatans involved in Small Wind take advantage of the fact that most folks don't really know what output to expect from a small wind turbine. They make no guarantees of production; they sell the equipment, such as it is, and walk away. Solar developers cannot get away with doing business that way.

 

[PVfarmer]

I question how you came to this conclusion.

Solar developers cannot get away with doing business that way.

I measure wind speed at the peak of my house- it's higher than what's shown on the map for 80m.
I question why you want to argue with my own two eyes.
I also know more than one person who got ripped off on a windmill, and wish they had talked to me first.

I also question why you seem to be telling the OP to do a 1 year wind speed survey when we know quite well the OP's customer doesn't care about doing that?
Or are you telling me to do one for my house?
I live in the 3rd windiest spot on the East Coast, so...no!
People are traveling to this area to windsurf.

 

[jaggedben]

A single data point means nothing. And you have also more or less confirmed that one needs to take measurements to confirm knowledge.

 

[electrofelon]

I measure wind speed at the peak of my house- it's higher than what's shown on the map for 80m.
I question why you want to argue with my own two eyes.
I also know more than one person who got ripped off on a windmill, and wish they had talked to me first.

I also question why you seem to be telling the OP to do a 1 year wind speed survey when we know quite well the OP's customer doesn't care about doing that?
Or are you telling me to do one for my house?
I live in the 3rd windiest spot on the East Coast, so...no!

How did you measure the wind speed and for how long? There are certainly a few spots that may not require a wind study, ie coastline, mountaintops.....I never did a wind study because of the reasons I already mentioned - but for most locations guessing /assuming is taking a big gamble.

Do you have any firsthand experience with wind?

 

[ggunn]

A single data point means nothing. And you have also more or less confirmed that one needs to take measurements to confirm knowledge.

Well said; I have nothing to add to that.

 

[ggunn]

Do you have any firsthand experience with wind?

Good luck with that. He never answered my similar question about solar. I've been designing residential and commercial PV for eight years but he is the expert. Right.

 

[PVfarmer]

A single data point means nothing. And you have also more or less confirmed that one needs to take measurements to confirm knowledge.

Maybe a 20 year average is a single data point, but it also proves that the wind at my house is ~2m/s higher than what the 80m map shows.
So it confirms the knowledge that the maps can be wrong either higher or lower.
So what?
This thread is about how to integrate solar and wind using limitless funds- why are ya ignoring the OP?

How did you measure the wind speed and for how long? There are certainly a few spots that may not require a wind study, ie coastline, mountaintops.....I never did a wind study

With a cheap anemometer, for 20 years.
Thanks for agreeing that a 1 year study can be either useful or a waste of time.
I live on the coast and it would be a waste of time.
You seem to have firsthand experience- why not share it with the OP, wouldn't that be more constructive?

Well said; I have nothing to add to that.

One doesn't need to retake measurements that have already been taken!
What do you have to add at all?
Seems like you are here to argue with me, again, for no good reason.
You've made exactly zero comments to the OP- what's the point?

 

[jaggedben]

This thread is about how to integrate solar and wind using limitless funds- why are ya ignoring the OP?

You are extrapolating way too much based on a couple short statements by the OP. No one said that the client wants to install wind just for fun no matter how much money it wastes. My general answer on how to integrate wind into a micro-grid system is that it either makes no difference to the over-arching decisions, or it makes it harder.

 

[PVfarmer]

No one said that the client wants to install wind just for fun no matter how much money it wastes. My general answer on how to integrate wind into a micro-grid system is that it either makes no difference to the over-arching decisions, or it makes it harder.

The OP's comments below seem like they are saying precisely what you say they aren't saying.
If solar takes x years and wind 2x years to pay back for themselves, how is "money wasted"?

Maybe you should try SAM for your own location and compare a 10kW turbine to a 10kW PV inverter, you might be surprised. (Instead of being negative)

If you had a client with limitless funds and wanted to serve as a guinea pig for the industry w

This customer has a wind fetish and a lot of money, I think a 100 foot tower would not be a problem.

The client is interested in how a house or group of houses can show that we can be energy independent but still wants to be connected to the grid.

As you might guess, they are a bit of a dreamer type, but hey, why not?

 

[electrofelon]

If you had a client with limitless funds and wanted to serve as a guinea pig for the industry w

This customer has a wind fetish and a lot of money, I think a 100 foot tower would not be a problem.

The client is interested in how a house or group of houses can show that we can be energy independent but still wants to be connected to the grid.

As you might guess, they are a bit of a dreamer type, but hey, why not?

If he wants wind and knows it's pitfalls then sure whatever he wants, it's a free country. However, if he wants to use this as a model to show and educate other people, I still standby solar as it is more realistic for most peope.

 

[jaggedben]

The OP's comments below seem like they are saying precisely what you say they aren't saying.
If solar takes x years and wind 2x years to pay back for themselves, how is "money wasted"?
...

It could take 10x, or too long to pay itself back over its lifetime. He's gotta measure his resource.

 

[PVfarmer]

If he wants wind and knows it's pitfalls then sure whatever he wants, it's a free country. However, if he wants to use this as a model to show and educate other people, I still standby solar as it is more realistic for most peope.

It could take 10x, or too long to pay itself back over its lifetime. He's gotta measure his resource.

Y'all are saying there isn't enough data, when in fact there is more than enough.
Also, I can literally see this from my house (the top of my house on perfectly clear days to be precise). And I live 15 miles away onshore. I have *tons* of wind.

America's first offshore wind farm!
http://dwwind.com/project/block-island-wind-farm/

The OP is in WA state- there are 80m wind classes of 1,2 and 5 in WA going by the gif below.
Since you don't know which one the OP's customer is in, you have no way of knowing what the payback period is.
Puget Sound area looks similar to my area- yellow dot- a 10kW turbine puts out MORE per year than a 10kW PV inverter here.
It also costs a lot more, but it certainly pays back, and quick.
I probably have more sun than the OP's customer...
https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/winds/northamerica.gif

The most accurate, a least-squares fit based on twice-a-day wind profiles from the soundings, resulted in 80-m wind speeds that are, on average, 0.3-0.5 m/s faster than those obtained from the most common methods previously used to obtain elevated data for U.S. windpower maps, a logarithmic law and a power law, both with constant coefficients. The results suggest that U.S. windpower at 80 m may be substantially greater than previously estimated. It was found that 21% of all stations (and 39% of all coastal/offshore stations) are characterized by mean annual speeds >=6.9 m/s at 80 m, implying that the winds over possibly one fifth of the U.S. are strong enough to provide electric power at a direct cost equal to that of a new natural gas or coal power plant.
https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/winds/us_winds.html

 

[jaggedben]

If you're trying to disprove ggunn's statement above: "Wind resources can vary widely between locations which are very close to each other", then nothing in your last post even speaks to that.

I asked you above if you are able to speak from experience that using data like this allows one to accurately predict the wind resource on a typical residential size property. You've been unable to answer that affirmatively. One data point (your own house) means nothing. I've surveyed over a thousand houses for solar, and I can speak from experience that the methodology used for estimating the resource, which takes less than a 1/2 hour, works pretty well.