Bid on small job trying to be fair on both ends

[JFletcher]

I have a job coming up that I have to look at and from my understanding it is just a condo with attic access and they want to get some ceiling fan boxes installed with the fans and possibly some can lights on switches for all of them.

My question is should I go in with a bid of per hour, and material; or should I simply just bid it per opening and what is a good per opening rate to charge. They live in a well off neighborhood and they probably aren't hurting for the cash but have a baby coming.

Any thoughts on this would be great thanks guys.

Here, "well off neighborhood" =

~ gate security/separate construction/contractor entrance = more time getting to the house
~ people who are sometimes incredibly anal/formal/picky, so budget more time on cleanup/setup. You do not want the foot of your 14' A frame knocking an $8,000 vase off a coffee table. You will also more than likely need a helper.
~ speaking of furniture, plan on moving or covering up a lot of stuff. Unless it's a huge bookcase or Steinway baby grand, move it (or have them move it), and bill accordingly.
~ plan on working around pets. They are their KIDS, YOU are the guest. Dont expect them to move/lock up their pets for you.
~ Make SURE the fans you install have the color of blade they want visible facing down. Every single one will have a lighting kit to wire up as well.
~ Make sure you program the dip switches or one remote could operate multiple fans in different rooms.

Condo attics here typically have an entryway hatch w/no stairs. No attic lighting. No floorboards (good).

If it is a high ceiling, you may want to go with remote switching; getting a switchleg to the location they desire can be all but impossible w/o cutting open finished walls. Existing switchplates may be wood or brass or something else non-standard, so if they want your additions to match, you need to know what they have.

If they buy the fans, hopefully they will have also purchased the correct (optional) downrods and light kits.

This time of year isnt too bad in attics, but I always buy the old work fan brackets that can be installed from below. Also, if the ceiling is anything other than drywall, plan on spending some extra time on it.

Bid the entire job as a whole, and if they want more, schedule another trip later to do it.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I have a job coming up that I have to look at and from my understanding it is just a condo with attic access and they want to get some ceiling fan boxes installed with the fans and possibly some can lights on switches for all of them.

My question is should I go in with a bid of per hour, and material; or should I simply just bid it per opening and what is a good per opening rate to charge. They live in a well off neighborhood and they probably aren't hurting for the cash but have a baby coming.

Any thoughts on this would be great thanks guys.

hm. 4 can lights in a bedroom, with a ceiling fan box?
you are hanging the fan, but not providing it then.

$638 per room, based on two room minimum.
incandescent cans. diva dimmer. switch with 3 wire
going to fan box.

patch and paint excluded.

4+1 per room is five cans, so ten things overall.

after subtracting material, you are at about $1,100
for the day. if you can't get that done in a day, you
may have to learn to scoot a little bit quicker.

your one wild card is installing a customer furnished
fan. i once had to install a tinkerbell fan from the disney
store.

it took almost six hours. it left a mark. i'm still having
flashbacks from the trauma.

tinkerbell sucks.

 

[brantmacga]

Cool and I have a question not a criticism, What do you do about what we call 'mobilization'? Basically the costs to get to the job, get the supplies etc.

If you do one can at $175 at one location that may eat up 1/2 day (4 hours).

On the other hand all four might be done in six hours.

Seems like you are making a lot less % for small jobs.

I can tell you the way I do it is $350 for the first can, $275 for the second, and $150 for each additional beyond that. That includes up to 25' of 12/2NM.

If I have to fish a wall to add a switch, it's another $150 for the switch leg, $35 for the switch, $10 for the junction box if needed.


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[JFletcher]

I can tell you the way I do it is $350 for the first can, $275 for the second, and $150 for each additional beyond that. That includes up to 25' of 12/2NM.

If I have to fish a wall to add a switch, it's another $150 for the switch leg, $35 for the switch, $10 for the junction box if needed.


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I've seen some of your installs, most are higher end. Does that price include a basic recessed can (~$12) or something better?

I dunno how you guys give any kind of standard pricing. The last ceiling fan I put together and hung, I was standing atop a waterbed in my socks. That included removing the existing fan. Those are the rule not the exception. Or do you guys run down a checklist playing 200 questions with the HO before giving a price? or just suck up any anomalies or include such contingencies in your pricing?

 

[brantmacga]

Bid on small job trying to be fair on both ends

I've seen some of your installs, most are higher end. Does that price include a basic recessed can (~$12) or something better?

6" can with LED trim; I use the 12w Satco trim in residential, and pay $14.50/ea. At that price, incandescent or CFL isn't even an option now. Sloped cans will add minimum $150/ea on top of normal price. Satco also has an 18w trim that costs me another $10 I think.

or just suck up any anomalies or include such contingencies in your pricing?

That, yes. We are 100% flat-rate. Every once in awhile, I'll break even on a call, and think about what I could've done differently to not let that happen.



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[precise8128]

6" can with LED trim; I use the 12w Satco trim in residential, and pay $14.50/ea. At that price, incandescent or CFL isn't even an option now. Sloped cans will add minimum $150/ea on top of normal price. Satco also has an 18w trim that costs me another $10 I think.




That, yes. We are 100% flat-rate. Every once in awhile, I'll break even on a call, and think about what I could've done differently to not let that happen.



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100% Flats Rate...Is that including service work too?

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[kwired]

With the wide variety of types of installations I work on I see it as being difficult to maintain any kind of flat rate pricing scheme. If I strictly did residential work, maybe that would make more sense. I can't remember the last time I installed some can lights in existing ceiling other then as a part of a somewhat major remodel project. Who knows though, I might find myself installing several in a few weeks. I am not going to waste time breaking down what that project cost me when I likely won't do one like it again for several years.

I will look at what they want, a little at the design of the house and give it my best shot on estimating how much time and materials it will take, throw in a little extra for the typical "just in case" scenarios I have encountered over the years and give them a estimate or bid based on that.

The next day I may be installing a circuit for a 100 HP motor - kind of different skill sets and circumstances most cases, and not as many constants on every installation as there is for installing a can light in a residence either.

 

[brantmacga]

With the wide variety of types of installations I work on I see it as being difficult to maintain any kind of flat rate pricing scheme.
.

I honestly thought the same before I saw it and started using it. To each their own I know, but I'd never go back.

We've actually swung to mostly commercial service these days, and those customers more so demand a pricing structure that gives them a clear cost up front for approval.


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[kwired]

I honestly thought the same before I saw it and started using it. To each their own I know, but I'd never go back.

We've actually swung to mostly commercial service these days, and those customers more so demand a pricing structure that gives them a clear cost up front for approval.


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I did a big project for a one man crew (with occasional help from the wife or my son) at a school last summer. Upgraded the service, changed it from single phase to three phase, (was originally 1800 amps single phase, new was 1200 amps three phase) redone a couple feeders to higher load areas with three phase, (of course changed the panels serving those areas), ran a 600 amp feeder to an area where they installed new HVAC equipment (primarily compressor units at this area), and installed branch circuits and communications cables to nearly every room in the facility for the individual HVAC units in each room. Also removed circuits supplying old HVAC units (many which I had installed in years past)

I did bid this, though I wasn't exactly competing with other EC's, they still needed a price up front. I had never seen the HVAC system before and was trying to gather as much information on it as I could to determine what they looked like, how I needed to connect them, etc. I also had no idea how well changing that service out was going to go, how long to tell the owner they may be without power, etc. I don't install that large of gear everyday, let alone have to tear out the old gear first and put the new back in it's place.

All I did was materials "take off", and some labor evaluations - both for tearing out and installation. I did spend quite a bit of time on site measuring, planning best routes (especially for the 600 amp feeder), and getting as much detail as possible before giving them a price.

A lot of tasks in there that are not foreign to me, but the size of the overall project was more then I usually do. Good thing was we had all summer to do it, could make as big of a mess as we wanted for the most part to get it done. HVAC guy did have someone that was going to tear out the old HVAC units, fix holes in walls, replace ceiling tiles, etc, so as long as I stayed ahead of them when an area was about to be finished I didn't have to clean up or fix much.

I think I did fairly well on that project and sort of wish I had one like it every summer now. Helped to be working in a place I have already done a lot of work in though, I know where all the maintenance chase accessible crawl spaces, etc. were and how the main distribution of the facility worked out just from being there several times over the years. I am the only EC that I know of that has done any work in there for about 20 years AFAIK as well.

 

[gadfly56]

I did a big project for a one man crew (with occasional help from the wife or my son) at a school last summer. Upgraded the service, changed it from single phase to three phase, (was originally 1800 amps single phase, new was 1200 amps three phase) redone a couple feeders to higher load areas with three phase, (of course changed the panels serving those areas), ran a 600 amp feeder to an area where they installed new HVAC equipment (primarily compressor units at this area), and installed branch circuits and communications cables to nearly every room in the facility for the individual HVAC units in each room. Also removed circuits supplying old HVAC units (many which I had installed in years past)

I did bid this, though I wasn't exactly competing with other EC's, they still needed a price up front. I had never seen the HVAC system before and was trying to gather as much information on it as I could to determine what they looked like, how I needed to connect them, etc. I also had no idea how well changing that service out was going to go, how long to tell the owner they may be without power, etc. I don't install that large of gear everyday, let alone have to tear out the old gear first and put the new back in it's place.

All I did was materials "take off", and some labor evaluations - both for tearing out and installation. I did spend quite a bit of time on site measuring, planning best routes (especially for the 600 amp feeder), and getting as much detail as possible before giving them a price.

A lot of tasks in there that are not foreign to me, but the size of the overall project was more then I usually do. Good thing was we had all summer to do it, could make as big of a mess as we wanted for the most part to get it done. HVAC guy did have someone that was going to tear out the old HVAC units, fix holes in walls, replace ceiling tiles, etc, so as long as I stayed ahead of them when an area was about to be finished I didn't have to clean up or fix much.

I think I did fairly well on that project and sort of wish I had one like it every summer now. Helped to be working in a place I have already done a lot of work in though, I know where all the maintenance chase accessible crawl spaces, etc. were and how the main distribution of the facility worked out just from being there several times over the years. I am the only EC that I know of that has done any work in there for about 20 years AFAIK as well.

Does Nebraska have a prevailing wage laws? That must have been a nice paycheck for everyone!

 

[kwired]

Does Nebraska have a prevailing wage laws? That must have been a nice paycheck for everyone!

Only time I have run into issues with prevailing wages is on federally funded projects.

 

[gadfly56]

Only time I have run into issues with prevailing wages is on federally funded projects.

I did a quick look, and it seems for state funded projects it is a requirement. Was any of the funding by the state?

 

[Strathead]

You have never been an electrical contractor or even earned a living as an electrian have you?

I am curious why you wrote this. I think I understand what the poster meant and basically agree with him, and I have. I think he made two valid points. You will only make the mistake of bidding too low once. It is a lesson that many people have to learn the hard way so, when it happens don't dwell on it too much, just try not to repeat it. And two but more vague, you can bid to work for your wages, or you can bid to make money (material markup) but it is a bid so you need to decide how important the particular job is and bid accordingly.

 

[Electric-Light]

He don't like the way I talk 'bout LED stuff.

 

[Electric-Light]

Does Nebraska have a prevailing wage laws? That must have been a nice paycheck for everyone!

Must have been a small church or private school. He said "I did a big project for a one man crew (with occasional help from the wife or my son) at a school last summer. " Public school systems and the government have very methodical policies. Generally they can't choose whoever they want. The law requires them to seek bids and you can not just bring family members or friends to help out. The price needs to be submitted broken down into details like they ask. You can not just give 'em one all inclusive number. Church or private schools can make their own rules.

 

[Doctor Electric]

I am curious why you wrote this. I think I understand what the poster meant and basically agree with him, and I have. I think he made two valid points. You will only make the mistake of bidding too low once. It is a lesson that many people have to learn the hard way so, when it happens don't dwell on it too much, just try not to repeat it. And two but more vague, you can bid to work for your wages, or you can bid to make money (material markup) but it is a bid so you need to decide how important the particular job is and bid accordingly.

I was going to respond to that message that he wrote of course I've been in the residential commercial field New work and mostly older remodels taking existing and manipulating for customer needs etc.. for almost 5 straight and am getting my practice tests for my state license sooner than I know it , it will be my time however,

I have read all of these posts thoroughly and God bless my soul that there are some folks out there as helpful as you all have been. It's a new customer they are a referral again ( which I seem to be getting a lot of lately) and maybe I want to be careful and be as fair as I can be. I know I've seen people get jerked around and that's not recipe for repeat business

 

[Electric-Light]

In this thread, one thing that is getting lost is that their own home or office is personal while their rentals are inpersonal and all about numbers. It's a different type of negotiation than a property manager that wants fans installed on 15 units.

Fans and some cans and maybe some switches. Oh and its a referral? What kind of referral?

You're probably not working with the happy hour bar steak where the only option is with tots or fries. If the customer isn't specing out specific parts, you better be prepared to be the sales advisor as they would expect at a high-end steak house. You're selling different products but you're still the waiter. Budget they had in mind, priorities, etc.

Are they wanting one of the handful of builder grade fans fast or is it someone who pays well for quality and service?

This certainly could be a type of job that should start with a consultation appointment. Don't get so wrapped up in the hours. This isn't billable time but how you handle this pretty much sets how much business you get and if you'll get more leads from this client.

 

[iwire]

I am curious why you wrote this.

Because it is the truth. His views and opinions are welcome but should be taken with that in mind.

 

[Electric-Light]

You don't have a good answer when I asked if the LED stuff you sold met performance specifications you only say 'they like them'.

 

[Strathead]

It's a new customer they are a referral again ( which I seem to be getting a lot of lately) and maybe I want to be careful and be as fair as I can be. I know I've seen people get jerked around and that's not recipe for repeat business

This is a concept that I believe you have to be careful with. What is fair? Each and every situation is different, but always remember that price is not all there is. I have a customer who I do all their work. I charge them more than I often charge in a low bid situation. However, they can call me day or night and ask, "how do I turn my freezer back on? It turned off." This is an industrial customer, BTW. When they are installing a new process, I am one of the first persons called. I recently reminded them they couldn't do what they wanted or they would collapse 100 feet of duct work. I like to believe I am worth the extra I charge to them, and I think they feel the same way. But there would be a bean counter somewhere who would certainly disagree.

In my opinion, your real goal should be to charge the highest amount you can that will accomplish the goals you want to accomplish.

My goals:
#1 don't lose money!
Maximize profit for my company
Try to inform the customer up front of any potential surprises.
be lower than the next guy bidding as long as the first two still stand, but just a LITTLE bit lower.

The problem is, that there is no one formula, and I totally disagree with the people who advocate unit price as a solution to all situations. For common items that are to be done onesy twosy that is fine. Otherwise, look at each situation.

What is fair, revisited. When you buy soda at Sam's club, you expect to pay say 40 cents each, but when you go to a gas station paying $1 is just fine. Both are fair, because they are what the market bears.

A plaque on an old bosses desk:

QUALITY - PRICE - SERVICE
PICK ANY TWO