Bidding from prints

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brantmacga said:
VE’s are only accepted when the owner signs off.

VE isn’t “cutting corners”. The job still has to meet NEC requirements. It’s pipe vs. cable, Brand A vs Brand B, aluminum vs copper, etc.

No one is dying because of a VE proposal.


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We don't engage in so-called value engineering as much as we let customers know that they've asked for something that maybe is suboptimal and there are better choices available.

We know our customers pretty good for the most part and usually they accept our suggestions. If they don't like the suggestion, we will either go with their idea if it's practical, or tell them we're not interested. I can only remember a couple of projects in 40 years that we had to turn down because we didn't want to do what the customer wanted.
 
Another C10 said:
My thought would be, some investor paid a designer to come up with a solid guideline which maybe an insurance company or other liability bound organization requested. The people that deviated from the "PLAN" are the ones that will need to deal with the courts if an issue ever comes up and hopefully no lives are lost due to the "value engineering" Unless signatures by the general contractor architect or engineer gives consent for such alterations I personally would not cut corners to save a buck. Its the sub contractors word and belief that their way is justifiable.

Good luck fighting that one when there's a multimillion dollar lawsuit.
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I would not want to give away a better, cost effective way to do the job. It could be handed over to other contractors. Unless it is a repeat customer, why do value engineering for free? Perhaps wait to get the contract and then offer alternatives?
 
Amps said:
I would not want to give away a better, cost effective way to do the job. It could be handed over to other contractors. Unless it is a repeat customer, why do value engineering for free? Perhaps wait to get the contract and then offer alternatives?
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if a GC is going to take your ideas to their preferred contractor, you were never going to win the bid anyway, and that certainly happens. Its common to see in the ITB to "please include your VE proposals".

The architect/engineer will have a budget before the job hits the street, and you want to be coaxing that information out of them. the only thing that matters is that you land in the bang zone, and negotiate from there. in true competitive bidding situations its tougher to find the bullseye but in negotiated contracts this should be a walk in the park.

as far as the time spent on VE options.... I don't have a multiplier to give you, but the time spent should be negligible. Everyone is working in software now, its just a few clicks of a button to come up with an alternative assembly. And every manufacturer rep out there is more than willing to put a competitive package together.

another thing to add.... on a large project, everyone in your supply chain knew about the job before you did, and they've already done the legwork to put a competitive material package together. From there its all about which contractor is willing to give up the most money.

happy to answer any questions here, looks like a good learning opportunity to get us all on the same page.
 
brantmacga said:
its all about which contractor is willing to give up the most money.
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and that's when the trouble starts.

been on those large jobs where all the supervisors begin to blame the foreman then the foreman blame the journeyman. Its not a pretty sight.
then more people gets called in from the hall and hours become 7-12's.

Not always the case but typically ..
 
The bidding system is ruthless, congratulations you are the low bidder !

Through my past experiences, I now only deal with the owner.
 
In my experience, VEing took place after the contract was awarded and the owner, architect, designers, and contractors are involved, there is no underhanded schemes going on. I have stated before that on large jobs submittals are scrutinized closely and what was specked will be supplied.

Now, all bidders will bid to the plans and specs and after the contract is awarded talks can begin. On one project I remember Holophane High Bay fixtures were specked and through VEing Lithonia was accepted at a fraction of the price.

There is nothing wrong with offering alternate products or methods for a savings. I buy generic brands over name brands without sacrificing quality.
 
Fred B said:
Anyone with experience making bids from electrical spec sheet and prints? Words of wisdom, or caution invited.
Was just approached to submit a bid on a smaller new construction store. Given all the spec sheets and prints that also include other mechanicals and even shelving layouts. Ground hasn't been broken yet.
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Back to your original question, re you going to start bidding regularly, or is this a one off?
 
just for the record, I don't believe anyone here is looking at value engineering or finding other practical cost effective solutions of intended installations as cutting corners or schemes intended. Me personally I would bid the job as designed and approved. Point being I wouldn't redesign
a confirmed intended installation knowing I could do it just as well or just as legal another way. If they want gold plated wires, bid it for gold plated wiring.
 
On a competitive bid, look for the errors in the design from the arch/engineer. Know what you would charge in a change order to fix it. Lose or barely have a profit margin in your original bid, but know how you're going to make it up during the course of construction. Get greedy, and clients will eventually get wise and stop using you. Bid too honestly, you'll never win.
 
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