bidding new home

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tonyou812 said:
So they can pay guys like you! why else?:-? How would you like it if your boss told you to go home because he wasnt going to hit a homerun on this one?
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I'm well aware of the concept of taking work just to retain employees. But even when things get bad enough a businessman will have to cut guys loose at some point. That's just how it goes. It's just electrical work and there are other guys who will step in and fill the void when things bounce back. I know it smart business to retain top notch employees...blah blah blah...

I was more talking about guys who consistently take work for little or no profit. That makes no sense to me at all.
 
arnettda said:
Any good sugestions on where start honing my skills. I see They sell a book here on estimating. I do not want to start off right away with a computer program. And does anybody know of classes you can take to help to learn to do estimating.
Thanks Dave
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Seriously dude, Bidding a house is not exactly rocket science, regardless what some people want you to think. I get the feeling that you think there is some kind of magic program or book that will make it really easy for you. And the truth is a lot of fellas just use there own methods developed by themselves. Most guys have their own little ways of doing it. But in the end you want to make money.
Now if you are small like me work alone it wouldnt be very prudent in trying to compete with a big guy that just needs to keep 10 guys working. I mean you can do it and you might make a few bucks but you need to ask your self this : If I tie myself up with this project for the next 3-4 weeks and basically just get a pay check out of it will I be shortchanging myself in the long run. Will I have to pass up on some other real money making jobs? And only you can ask yourself that.
 
peter d said:
I'm well aware of the concept of taking work just to retain employees. But even when things get bad enough a businessman will have to cut guys loose at some point. That's just how it goes. It's just electrical work and there are other guys who will step in and fill the void when things bounce back. I know it smart business to retain top notch employees...blah blah blah...

I was more talking about guys who consistently take work for little or no profit. That makes no sense to me at all.
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Oh well thats different. I agree with you on that. I know plenty of those guys. Its almost like they have a fear of rejection or something. Ive lost quite a few bids lately and I cant beileve what other peps were doing it for. But I keep to my guns. Like someone else said Id rather watch judge judy than work for excersie, although I do like to exercise.
 
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arnettda said:
Any good sugestions on where start honing my skills. I see They sell a book here on estimating. I do not want to start off right away with a computer program. And does anybody know of classes you can take to help to learn to do estimating.
Thanks Dave
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A book/class on estimating is only 1/2 the equation.
You may be able to pick up some pointers on the actual counts, building assemblies, overhead, labor hours and the like. Much of this you should already have some idea of.
And that's great....but it's only 1/2 the task.

The other 1/2 is the actual cost of material.
With the way the copper market fluctuates, fixture pricing, etc...how do you intend to obtain accurate, up to date commodity pricing?
This is where an actual estimating program is worth it's weight in gold.

Still want just a book?
Or are you willing to spend some money, to make some money?
 
I'd add another 1/2 to the previous example. Wait, thats three halves. :-?

Anyway, for me the best estimating education I have received is through experience.

I've learned what to expect from different customers. Do I need to add a high PITA fee?

I've learned how certain contractors work. Do I need to add high PITA fee?

I've learned that there is more time involved in contracting than just the time spent actually working on the job.

I've learned that there is more to wiring a house that just bangin' out some lights and receptacles.


I could go on but you get the point. Did I even make a point? :confused:
 
Study all pages of the drawings, the Elec pages are not the only ones that pertain to us. pay attention to factors such as ceiling height throughout (scaffolding needed?), location of project, proximity to supplies, job-specific construction processes across all trades involved, opportunity to sell more changes after winning the job (this is my winner, i sell more can lights and landscape, etc...) I use a fair (heated)square footage price for my area($3.50) that covers your general use stuff then add for each can light ($50) then $30 for ceiling fans ( because of assembly time, although some standard fixtures have become more than the fans) Add for the service entrance $600-$1000 (underground/overhead) check the requirments of the local POCO. Watch especially for little notes about anything that might relate to your scope of work. A 2500 sq ft house with 5 fans and 10 cans would be $10,200... adjust rates for customs and factors
 
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All this reminds me of the scene in "Days of Thunder" where Robert Duval and Tom Cruise finally figure each other out. They're in a bar and Duvaal is spewing all sorts of inside racing tech terms and phrases while Tom has this deer in the headlights expresssion.

I can't talk to this son of a bich.
I can't talk to that son of a bich. I really can't.


Hey, Harry.
- We've got to talk. - All right, talk.
On the radio during the race...
You've got to tell us what's going on with the car.
You want to change the way I drive.
Set up the car so I don't have to change.
- Tell me how. - What do you want to know?
Is she running loose or tight?
A turn here, take some wedge out, we'll win some races.

I can't do that. I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
How do you mean that?
- I don't know much about cars. - Neither does any other driver.
No, I really don't know. A turn here? A wedge there?
- I don't know. - How can that be?

They told me to get in a car and drive.
I'd like to help out, but I can't. I don't have the vocabulary.
Well... we're just going to have to figure one out.
Don't worry about it. All right?

Learning the vocabulary is the first element in really learning the trade. So everyone else in the room knows what you mean and you know what they mean. Well guess what guys, the same is true of the entirely different trade of business management.

Learn the terms and whaat they mean and before too long your native understanding of what underlies those things will fill in the blanks. it's not that hard but there is indeed a learning curve to be overcome.
 
Rich,

I feel that you should always do a detailed bid. There are just too many variables that can make a difference. You work too hard to take a chance on losing money on any single job. Take the time and do a detailed estimate.

You referenced Mike Holt?s book. I highly recommend that you purchase the book. It will give you a good understanding of the basic estimating process.

Unfortunately for you, and regardless of what others say, there is a lot to consider when completing a detailed estimate.

I don?t believe in square foot estimates. Construction factors, the quantity of different types of assemblies, labor rates, material fluctuations, etc. can have a dramatic impact on your cost.

I don?t believe in unit pricing either. Once again, construction factors, labor rates, fluctuating material prices, etc. can change from job to job.

I know it?s going to be a big surprise but I?m a big believer in computer estimating software (As is Mike Holt). I would suggest that you check out the programs that Mike lists as the major estimating programs. I?m pretty sure that you can download free trials of them all. Check them out. If nothing else, it will at least give you a good idea of what is involved.

Following is a list of some of the areas that you should be aware of:

Construction Factors ? The construction of the house makes a difference on installation times.

-- For example: A ceiling light rough-in will take longer in a 1st floor ceiling that is constructed of dimensional lumber (2x12s) than it will in a 2nd floor ceiling that is constructed of open web joists.


Material Type ? Are you using conduit or romex? #12 or #14? Standard devices or Decora devices? Etc.


Material Cost? What are your materials going to cost you?


Direct Labor ? What is your direct labor cost for the project.

-- You need to have a basis to determine how long the installation will take. I personally believe the most accurate method is to use labor units. A labor unit is the amount of time that each piece of material, assembly or labor only installation takes to install.

-- Some people prefer to use each employees billable rate per hour rather than their actual pay rate per hour. Whatever you do, make sure to include each employees burden costs.

-- If you have an apprentice, or anyone that produces less than an average Journeyman, don?t forget to calculate how much additional time the project will take to make up for their lack of production. This is an area where a lot of people leave money on the table.


Additional Labor- What additional labor, over and above the direct installation labor, are you going to incur? Ex: Deliveries, job set-up, material ordering, paper work, travel time, etc.


Tools ? Do you need to purchase any tools or equipment for the project or do you want to apply a small percentage to account for tool replenishment.


Subcontracts ? Do you need to subcontract out any portion of the job? Ex: Security, fire alarm, concrete cut and patch, etc.


Bond ? Do you need to bond the job?


State Sales Tax: Does your state require you to collect sales tax on the bid amount? This is not the same as the tax you pay on material.


Code Requirements ? Do you know the code requirement for the jurisdiction?

-- Are you going to submit a bid price that reflects exactly what is on the print or are you going to value engineer the print so that you can give your customer a price for per plan as well as a what it will cost them for a code compliant installation?

-- If you?re unsure of the inspector?s requirements, call him up ask him. Remember that the NEC is the minimum. Every inspector has their own unique requirements. Don?t assume. It can cost you money and grief.


Take-Off ? Take-Off the electrical items from the print. I find that a spreadsheet works well for this.

-- Each column can be an assembly, I.e., Single Pole Switch, 3-Way Switch, etc.

-- Each row can be a room. I.e., Front Exterior, Foyer, etc.
I feel that you get the following benefits when doing a room by room take-off.

-- it is easier to double check your estimate.

-- You can present a Quantity Take-Off by Room report as part of your bid package.

-- You can assign the proper labor units based on the construction factors of each floor.


Include the cost of any light fixtures.


Add any misc. material that will be required.


Add for material waste and/or theft if it?s an issue.


Make any labor hour adjustments ? This can be additional labor for things like weather and humidity, ladder and scaffold, overtime, job factors, etc.


Add up your estimated prime cost ? This is the sum of material, labor and misc. expenses.


Add your overhead to the estimated prime cost. This will give you your Estimated Break Even Cost ? There are numerous ways to calculate your direct costs.

-- You can choose to assign different percentages for material ,labor, etc.

-- You can choose to use a percentage of your estimated prime cost.

-- You can choose to use a rate per hour.

-- You can choose to use a lump sum.


Add your profit to the estimated break even cost ? This will give you your Bid Price.

-- You can choose to assign different percentages for material ,labor, etc.

-- You can choose to use a percentage of your estimated prime cost.

-- You can choose to use a lump sum.


Generate a detailed, professional looking, formal proposal ? Be specific on what is and what is not included.

-- Include the scope of work

-- Reference the print date and the last revision date if applicable.

-- Include a date that your price is valid till.

-- Make sure to specify if your bid price is based on exactly what the print shows or if you value engineered the print to meet code.


Break up your bid price into the draws that you want to receive, I.e., Service, Rough, Trim. etc.



Good luck Rich.
 
arnettda said:
Any good sugestions on where start honing my skills. I see They sell a book here on estimating. I do not want to start off right away with a computer program. And does anybody know of classes you can take to help to learn to do estimating.
Thanks Dave
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Dave,

Where are you located? I might be able to recommend a technical school that teaches electrical estimating in your area if you're interested.

Or are you trying to find a way to learn estimating through an online course?
 
Bill Ruffner said:
Dave,

Where are you located? I might be able to recommend a technical school that teaches electrical estimating in your area if you're interested.

Or are you trying to find a way to learn estimating through an online course?
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I am in northern WI. I would do something on line or a class as well. I saw once NECA offering a estimating class out east for four days. I would be interested in something like that as well. I am not a NECA member. I have been doing alot of work at the local hospital on a T&M bassis. They are remodeling there ER and I did not bid it. The work was no problem, I just did not want to loose my shirt if I bid it wrong. And figured it would take me a week to bid it and did not have the time. I have never done a commercial bid before an the take off scares me as well as all the unknow factors for different types of racks you may need to build or similar unforseen obstacles. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
 
Nice work WJR. I smell a protoge for emaler......maybe a possible replacement. I totally agree with the different labor rate for and apprenitce. Dont assume the same people produce ths same. I already made this mistake.
although i dont agree with not using unit price. You can still do it but you would need to factor in some of the variables
 
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tonyou812 said:
Nice work WJR. I smell a protoge for emaler......maybe a possible replacement.
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I didn?t know how to respond to this comment even though I knew it was made in jest. However, it got me to wondering how my signature would be perceived by members of this forum.

Over a year ago, Mike Holt made a comment to me that I should start posting on the forum since I am in the unique position of having created an estimating software program. Up until now I have been tentative at best. Over the past year I?ve made about 30 posts under the user name WJR. I never hid the fact that I developed an estimating program nor did I go out of my way to advertise it.

I just recently decided that I should fully disclose who I am and what I do. I feel that if I am offering my opinion or giving some small piece of advice in response to someone?s question, everyone should know where I?m coming from.

It?s important to me that you understand that I am not on this forum to promote TurboBid. Mike has already sent out a couple of newsletters regarding the program and has it listed, along with a demo, on his website.

I?m only going into this because I received a PM from a member stating that I should be careful in how I post. That I could be perceived in a negative way because I sell an estimating program. My feelings are that you guys are above that. So what if I developed an estimating program. I?m not here to sell it on this forum. I?m no different than anyone else. I want to be able to express my opinions, or to ask you for an opinion on all kinds of issues. I happen to be a contractor as well as a software developer. I?m also an electrician. I?m actually on a job right now, (Sunday @ 3:38 pm) trying to wrap up a trim. If I happen to refer to my program in a post it?s only because it?s how I estimate. I have no other reference point. What can I say? I enjoy talking about estimating. I have a passion for it and it?s what I do.

tonyou812 said:
although i dont agree with not using unit price. You can still do it but you would need to factor in some of the variables
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I agree with you. If you have a system for estimating with unit pricing and then applying factors, that?s cool.

I just like to use detailed estimates. I feel that it works better for me for a couple of reasons. In a detailed estimate, each assembly has a detailed list of material. The material is linked to a material database that allows the assemblies material prices to be easily updated. I like to be able to update the master material database and then have all of the assemblies updated from that.

I also like having a labor unit assigned to the material in each assembly. If I need to adjust material quantities in an assembly, the labor for that assembly is automatically adjusted. Also, when I incur labor rate increases, it?s not a problem. At the end of the estimate, I have a total labor budget for the job. It?s just a matter of using the new labor rates multiplied by the labor budget.

I can also generate a detailed material list broken into service, rough, trim, etc..

By having material and labor baselines, I can measure the accuracy of the estimates and make adjustments for future estimates.

Thanks for allowing me to express my thoughts.
 
Please clarify for me the difference between units and assemblies. All these years they were one and the same to me and whoever I worked for.

IE: a receptacle still contains.... a box, 'X'-ft of wire, staples, wirenuts, device, plate and labor to install said items. Then quoted a price for install. Variables for going overhead, thru studs, under floor installation would be factored in. Is this considered a unit or an assembly? With a print one would know construction design and which unit (or opening...term I've been taught to to use) would be required.
 
~Shado~ said:
Please clarify for me the difference between units and assemblies. All these years they were one and the same to me and whoever I worked for.

IE: a receptacle still contains.... a box, 'X'-ft of wire, staples, wirenuts, device, plate and labor to install said items. Then quoted a price for install. Variables for going overhead, thru studs, under floor installation would be factored in. Is this considered a unit or an assembly? With a print one would know construction design and which unit (or opening...term I've been taught to to use) would be required.
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I agree with your description of how to bid.

As far as I'm concerned, units and assemblies are the same animal. I only make a distinction in regards to the term "Unit Pricing". To me, unit pricing means that there is a fixed dollar amount that is assigned to the unit or assembly. The amount is not dependent on the individual material pricing or labor units that are assigned to each piece of material that make up the assembly. With unit pricing, it's more difficult to account for material price fluctuations as well as labor hour amounts.
 
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