Big bid

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Minuteman

Minuteman

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The Sooner Nation
Before I started contracting a few years ago, I was a foreman for 2 large shops and have worked on large jobs and even ran a few. I have bid some what I would call "medium" sized job since, but only won the bid on three.

I received a set of plans yesterday for what I would consider a fairly large job. It's a roughly 60,000 sq. ft. new church that seats 750 and has a education wing. It has a 3000 A. (No transformers) 120/208 V. main disconnect with a 2000 A. MDP and 7 sub panels

The church is self contracting and an acquaintance of mine is a member that has been hired to be the construction manager. I think I can man the job and I have a J-man that I think could run it. The site is less than 3 miles from my shop and we have good cash flow and credit line.

Problem is the bid. I have "National Estimator" but I'm not that good with it. I have my own method with material take offs, but I tend to overestimate labor costs. Any suggestions? I would like to do this job!
 
Minuteman said:
It's a roughly 60,000 sq. ft. new church that seats 750 and has a education wing. It has a 3000 A. (No transformers) 120/208 V. main disconnect with a 2000 A. MDP and 7 sub panels
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That's an awful big job to learn how to estimate on. You have more guts then I do. I have seen a few contractors in this area "go under" from taking on a job much larger than they ever bid before. When your off you can be off big time-- so be careful. I, personally, would start smaller and work up to a job that size, but that's me--I'm too chicken.
 
Michael, there are some estimating services out there. Might not hurt to give one a call. Also, have you tried an estimating program? This may be a good time to purchase one.

It is going to be hard to sq ft a church, there are too many variables. If you just sit down and make all your counts, then apply some basic number it may be a good start for a baseline price. Good luck !!
 
If the construction manager is an acquaintence of yours, I'd at least approach him on what the budget for the electrical is - at least you'd know if you were in the "ball park". Taking this step is a big one, and I think you really want to lay out your bidding approach so you check, double check and triple check.

I like Duffee's suggestion of an independant estimating service. Nothing against National Estimator - I think it's fine for small jobs - but if you're going "big time" (and this job pretty much is moving you in that relm) I think you want to invest in a higher end estimation program. I personally use Electrical Bid Manager - it has the capability to link to pricing, and gives nice summaries of what you've got in material and labor. It also let's you do a lot of customization to fit your business. The problem is, like any software package, that there is a learning curve - and I don't think you want to come up that curve on a job this size.

Maybe an approach is a pencil and paper workup and bounce it off the budget (if you're friend will share it with you) and then hire an estimating service. I'd be curious how much you end up paying for this, if you're willing to share it.

Good Luck!

Brett
 
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bjp_ne_elec said:
If the construction manager is an acquaintence of yours, I'd at least approach him on what the budget for the electrical is - at least you'd know if you were in the "ball park". Taking this step is a big one, and I think you really want to lay out your bidding approach so you check, double check and triple check.

I like Duffee's suggestion of an independant estimating service. Nothing against National Estimator - I think it's fine for small jobs - but if you're going "big time" (and this job pretty much is moving you in that relm) I think you want to invest in a higher end estimation program. I personally use Electrical Bid Manager - it has the capability to link to pricing, and gives nice summaries of what you've got in material and labor. It also let's you do a lot of customization to fit your business. The problem is, like any software package, that there is a learning curve - and I don't think you want to come up that curve on a job this size.

Maybe an approach is a pencil and paper workup and bounce it off the budget (if you're friend will share it with you) and then hire an estimating service. I'd be curious how much you end up paying for this, if you're willing to share it.

Good Luck!

Brett
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I've been using EBM for the past 7 years and as Brett said it takes time to figure out what % you can change. Ive estimated jobs up to 1 million $'s. This job could bust your bubble. Try to give them an approx. budget figure w/ certain conditions, or do your estimate the way you would normally, and hire an outside estimating company, they're out there. LOL:grin:
 
Thanks guys. I have noticed an ad for a estimating service in a magazine the other day, but I never thought about using one till now. I ran across a question on the prints yesterday, and the CM said he going out of town for a few days and that I should drop by today. I think I will hit him up on the budget.
 
With Churches being like they are these days (lots of audio/video/theatrical lighting) can run in the $15.00-$20.00/sq ft range. Don't be guessing at this. You miss it 10%, well, do the math.
Good luck
 
bjp_ne_elec said:
I like Duffee's suggestion of an independant estimating service. Nothing against National Estimator - I think it's fine for small jobs - but if you're going "big time" (and this job pretty much is moving you in that relm) I think you want to invest in a higher end estimation program.

Brett
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I'm a big fan of TNE, but NOT in this application.

The suggestion to sub out the bid or move to a higher end program are both solid ideas.
 
bjp_ne_elec said:
Minuteman - what kind of construction is this - structure, interior walls, exterior walls, etc?
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Metal building with EIFS & Brick exterior and sheet rock interior. Mostly acoustical tile ceiling (some sheet rock).
 
One item that is sometimes unusual compared to the "standard" job is the heights you may encounter. Working those heights and some of the fixtures they may plan on are not standard work and are labor killers, especially if the pews are installed before the fixtures...I have seen that happen.
Also with this height issue is a safety issue, again especially with poor planning due to inexperience.

Good luck!!!
 
Thanks Pierre,

We own an electric scissor lift and a propane boom lift, as well as scaffold. The max ceiling height is 34' on the job. But if we get the job, I will be sure to get the fixtures up before the pews go in. :smile:
 
If you can truly wire the job and you are comfortable with running your company now, you can bid it. You said you tend to overestimate costs. The worse that happens then is that you lose the bid, not your company. And doing the takeoff and bid by hand is perfectly fine. Might take longer, but the only reason for estimating software is to save time. And maybe mathemetical mistakes. The biggest mistake I see is a contractor who is over his head in terms of being able to perform a job of this size. If you're comfortable with doing it, do it. Just be cautious with the bid.

I am surprised, though, that they want to self contract the job to begin with.
 
j_erickson said:
If you can truly wire the job and you are comfortable with running your company now, you can bid it. You said you tend to overestimate costs. The worse that happens then is that you lose the bid, not your company. And doing the takeoff and bid by hand is perfectly fine. Might take longer, but the only reason for estimating software is to save time. And maybe mathemetical mistakes. The biggest mistake I see is a contractor who is over his head in terms of being able to perform a job of this size. If you're comfortable with doing it, do it. Just be cautious with the bid.

I am surprised, though, that they want to self contract the job to begin with.
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I agree completely and would like to ad that you should trust your judgement.

If you can do your estimate before you know the "budget" number, you won't drift towards the number with your estimate. A low budget number might influence your numbers in a bad way. Of course a high budget number might influence your estimate the other way.
 
Also remember to spell out every detail in your estimate, that way there is no misunderstandings later.
 
There are a couple of factors that warrant special attention:

1. Doing a job for someone with a social/friend relationship can lead to expectations on the part of the friend that some changes and dealing with design errors will not result in cost-bearing change orders. The defense against that is that you need to have a very good contract that defines what is included and not included, and makes it clear that changes will be paid for.

2. Much of the lighting, audio/visual, and specialty equipment will be non-standard, may be hard to get reliable prices for, and will require a lot of procurement effort by someone. It would be very helpful if the architect has done a takeoff of all of that kind of material and can furnish a computer-file of it.
 
Bob NH said:
There are a couple of factors that warrant special attention:

1. Doing a job for someone with a social/friend relationship can lead to expectations on the part of the friend that some changes and dealing with design errors will not result in cost-bearing change orders. The defense against that is that you need to have a very good contract that defines what is included and not included, and makes it clear that changes will be paid for.

2. Much of the lighting, audio/visual, and specialty equipment will be non-standard, may be hard to get reliable prices for, and will require a lot of procurement effort by someone. It would be very helpful if the architect has done a takeoff of all of that kind of material and can furnish a computer-file of it.
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1. I agree Bob, but this guy is just an acquaintance and not somebody that I know socially.

2. All the specialty stuff is being done by someone else and not part of the scope. The phone/data is also excluded.
 
Minuteman said:
The church is self contracting
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Do they have a GC license or is that required?

Is the budget price coming from the architect or is it just what the church thinks it will run? Sometimes I think budget prices are just pulled out of the air and are much lower than what the true cost will be.

Just a few suggestions that came to mind........

I agree spell out everything your price does and does not include and go over it in detail.

If they want anything changed or added be sure to get change orders.
(We renovated 3 churches a few years ago and they were always changing stuff)

Get as much money as you can out of your estimates in the beginning.
(All 3 of those started running out of money at the end of the job and it was heck collecting & one still OWES us money. I am not saying all are like that because we have done others in the past with no problems at all.)

I always like to know how many days they want the job completed in because...

1. that way you may have some idea if you are going to have to work OT and can add some extra on to your labor price to cover that. (Those OT wages really eat away at your profit if none was figured for the job.)

2. you can estimate what you will be paying your workers for that many hours & what your payroll taxes will be and at least make sure you have enough labor in there to pay them & taxes plus whatever % profit you want to make on labor. That is probably not the correct way to do that but I always like to check that against what I figured for labor in the job.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.
 
Michael,
We own an electric scissor lift and a propane boom lift, as well as scaffold.
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If the floor is raked or pitched to the front, make sure that your lifts are suitable for operation on that amount of pitch.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
If the floor is raked or pitched to the front, make sure that your lifts are suitable for operation on that amount of pitch.
Don
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Excellent point Don. I better check the floor. I haven't looked beyond the reflected ceiling prints, the panel schedule and the one line diagram, yet. That could make things interesting!
 
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