Billing dispute (need advice) (longish)

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jmsbrush said:
Marc how often would you say you get clients like these?
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ummm... not very often. I feel lucky that most of the people I have to work for are nice, "country folk", so to speak. If I worked in a big-city type area, I'd probably got nuts and slit my wrists if this was an every-day thing. You pick up skills over time, (people skills, communication skills) that permit you to head off most of their potential nonsense at the pass. That's the key thing to learn. Some people choose not to work for people like this, but some still slip through the cracks. You need to refine your approach with these folks over time, to work with them effectively. Education is expensive. If you take a little cut here and there, call it tuition.
 
Lesson learned from the email. You may have to chalk this up as a lesson learned. How much money are we talking about here anyway?

On the other hand since the bridge has already been burned with the designer, go after her in the appropriate court if she ows you money. You are a professional and make her earn the money she sandbagged off of you.

If you were doing well in business before you met these people then it should not affect you at all, especially if small claim or whatever court rules in your favor.

JMHO
 
ishium 80439 said:
I made the mistake of getting into a job that had a designer trying to run the show and of course now there is dispute on the final payment. It is a long story but I will try to keep it as short as I can but still give the pertinent details.

I was referred to this woman by a contractor that I work for. She had clients that just bought a house (~7000sf) and wanted a bunch of work done before they moved in. For the miscellaneous work they wanted it came to approximately $10G. I did a final walk through with the designer and everything seemed OK.

Then the HO asked what about the dimmers? I asked what dimmers as according to my proposal (which contains the line "anything not specifically included is considered to be excluded") there were no dimmers involved. Then they dug up an email in which I wrote that dimmers were included on any new switches that we installed (a few sets of recessed lights, some pendants etc). I figured that I had made a mistake, totally forgetting about the dimmers and I would credit them back the cost of the device.

Well apparently the designer and the HO had a discussion about how much I was owed and they decided that I should be also be back charged for the cost of a handyman to R&R the devices. In addition to that the designer had sent out a check for the final payment before the HO told her about the lack of dimmers. Rather than call me and tell me that there was a problem, she stopped payment on the check and is charging me for that too.

I feel that since I was not given the opportunity to correct the situation (ie install the dimmers) and I did perform work there (ran wire, installed boxes, switches, plates etc) that I do not owe them for anything more than what I was going to charge them for the devices. In addition I feel that I am in no way responsible for the cost of the stop payment on the check.

I am considering a small claims case (I have tried several times to work this out w/ the designer to no avail) and was wondering what some opinions are. I would hate to take it that far if I have a weak case. We are talking about a very small amount of money but the principal of this thing is eating me up. I don't think I would be near as angry if she did not hold out that fee.
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What would I do? I'll tell you what I would do. You ready? I'd tell them to take back the cancelled check fee and the cost of the handyman since they didn't let you make good on your promise of installing the dimmers. If they don't want to let you (me) do that, which by the way since it wasn't in the contract they should be happy with you (me) still willing to give them the dimmers, then I do something drastic. Maybe I take the meter off the house so they have no power. Maybe I take the meter out and then cut the load side conductors right as it's entering the house. Maybe I.........you get the idea. Luckily for me and the customer I've never been ripped off like that. I usually only get jobs from people that I would consider to be good customers and aren't out to give me the big "rod" every chance they get. So I've never had to feel the need to destroy part of they're home.
 
ishium 80439 said:
Then they dug up an email in which I wrote that dimmers were included on any new switches that we installed (a few sets of recessed lights, some pendants etc).
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See any signature on that email? If not, it's not part of the contract, plain and simple. I would go after this one big-time.

Cost of collection should be part of your contract, so you should get your entire balance in addition to your lawyer's fees.

You can probably collect treble damages on the improperly-stopped check, too. You really need to talk to a good lawyer.
 
steelersman said:
.....then I do something drastic. Maybe I take the meter off the house so they have no power. Maybe I take the meter out and then cut the load side conductors right as it's entering the house. Maybe I.........you get the idea. ......
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Looking for three hots and a cot?
 
steelersman said:
Maybe I take the meter off the house so they have no power. Maybe I take the meter out and then cut the load side conductors right as it's entering the house.
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As enticing as that sounds, it is highly illegal and will serve to ruin you as you spend your life in PMITA prison.
 
ishium 80439 said:
Then they dug up an email in which I wrote that dimmers were included on any new switches that we installed (a few sets of recessed lights, some pendants etc). I figured that I had made a mistake, totally forgetting about the dimmers and I would credit them back the cost of the device.
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In my opinion you do owe the homeowner the dimmers installed because you promised in a correspondence. It's important to start a file on any job like this that's going to drag out for awhile and keep copies of all correspondence ( that would include e-mail).

But the homeowner is also wrong in thinking that they can hire someone else to do the work and back charge you without first giving you a chance to correct the error.

If they already have the dimmers installed then pay for the install at a fair rate and then void the warranty because the work had been tampered with.

Never spend to much time with one customer like this ( trying to collect a few extra dollars ) you will lose more than you gain. I'm sure you had a little fudge factor in the contract to start with for minor mistakes.

Bury the dead ( presidents ) and move on.
 
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In terms of the email I want to honor it because that is what I intended.

Marc, are you saying that even though I was never given the opportunity to make this right I am totally hosed? I can understand if after that email was brought to my attention and I refused than I could be seen as liable for the R&R of the devices I put in once. But considering that I was completely cut out of that choice I feel that all that I owe them is the retail price of the dimmers.

Sabotage to the house is not really what I'm looking for. Hard to get anymore customers from the local holding facility with a yanked license.
 
steelersman said:
What would I do? I'll tell you what I would do. You ready? I'd tell them to take back the cancelled check fee and the cost of the handyman since they didn't let you make good on your promise of installing the dimmers. If they don't want to let you (me) do that, which by the way since it wasn't in the contract they should be happy with you (me) still willing to give them the dimmers, then I do something drastic. Maybe I take the meter off the house so they have no power. Maybe I take the meter out and then cut the load side conductors right as it's entering the house. Maybe I.........you get the idea. Luckily for me and the customer I've never been ripped off like that. I usually only get jobs from people that I would consider to be good customers and aren't out to give me the big "rod" every chance they get. So I've never had to feel the need to destroy part of they're home.
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Don't worry if you are good enough I can you in a $1.00 per day slot carrying my ladder around the prison for me.:D
 
ishium 80439 said:
In terms of the email I want to honor it because that is what I intended.

Marc, are you saying that even though I was never given the opportunity to make this right I am totally hosed? I can understand if after that email was brought to my attention and I refused than I could be seen as liable for the R&R of the devices I put in once. But considering that I was completely cut out of that choice I feel that all that I owe them is the retail price of the dimmers.

Sabotage to the house is not really what I'm looking for. Hard to get anymore customers from the local holding facility with a yanked license.
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Your State has lien laws....
Try these nice folks:
http://www.hollandhart.com/articles/COLawSubcontractMaterial.pdf
 
ishium 80439 said:
For the miscellaneous work they wanted it came to approximately $10G. I did a final walk through with the designer and everything seemed OK.
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For 10 Gizallion dolloars I would think you could spring for s fw dimmers, or is that gigadollars?
 
Send the designer and home owner a letter stating that the omission of the dimmers was a oversight on your part. But since you were not given the opportunity to correct the oversight you feel it fair to deduct the cost of the dimmers. And that you feel it's not your responsibility to incur the expense for the installation since you were not given the opportunity to rectify the situation. Also it is not your responsibility to incur the cost of the designer stopping payment on the check for the work preformed.

This way you will have proof that you made an effort to settle the situation if you have the need to take it to court. Then and only after you receive the payment or judgment that I would inform the HO that because they allowed someone else to modify the electrical installation you preformed that that has voided any and all warranties
 
jrannis said:
Is the designer properly licensed to work as a General Contractor?
How does that work in your State?
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There was a builder on the job who pulled the permit for the little bit of carpentry that was being done, but he in no way acted as a GC. All correspondence, scheduling, billing etc was through her and the checks that I did receive came through her.
 
I would check and see if it is legal to stop payment on a check given in good faith in your location. In a lot of locations it is a Felony to do so. If it is the same where you are?????? Lock her butt up and have a meeting when she posts bail!
 
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ishium 80439 said:
We are talking about a very small amount of money but the principal of this thing is eating me up. I don't think I would be near as angry if she did not hold out that fee.
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Just how much money are you talking about, Dimmers, handyman and stop check fee?
 
And spend a few bucks to have an attorney look at your standard contract language. It should have a clause that says something to the effect that only work and materials described on approved prints, schedules or specifically listed in the contract are included. The written contract supercedes any and all discussions or agreements. ANY additional work or changes in specifications will require a signed change order.

This will make you feel better, might give you some advantage in court, but won't really stop these kinds of folks from trying again. They enjoy it too much.
 
Legally, they are required to allow you a chance to remedy the situation.

Unless specifically stated in your contract, or theirs, whichever is signed, they probably aren't allowed to back charge you.

Take them to court. Your business might suffer, but if you explain the situation, it might get better.
 
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