Blank Face GFCI

J

Jimmy7

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Occupation
Electrician
I need to add gfci protection to a bath fan I need to replace which is located in the shower. I wanted to have it so that if the gfci tripped it wouldn’t put the entire bathroom in the dark. There is a four gang that controls all the lighting in the bathroom. Single pole for a vanity light, a single pole for a recessed light, and two single poles that control the fan and light of the exhaust fan. I was planning on doing a switch over switch to make room for a blank face gfci. I never wired one of these before. I’m planning on taking the neutral from the feed and hit the neutrals of the two single pole switches (Vanity and recessed) and the neutral of the line side of the blank face, I would then put the neutral of the 3-wire from the exhaust fan on the load side neutral of the blank face. I would then pigtail the black of the feed and hit the two single poles and the line side of the blank face gfci. Then finally run a black wire from the load side of the blank face gfci to feed the switch over switch. Then obviously put the black and red of the 3-wire from the fan on the load sides of the switch over switch. Will this work okay?
 
How about one of these?
Looks maybe a little less like redneck engineering than the dead front GFCI does?
Or do you not want/can't have a receptacle on that circuit?
Feed the load side of GFCI through the switch.
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Our customer’s house has a bath fan located in the shower that they want replaced . The panel is Crouse Hinds, and according to Eaton their regular Classified breakers will fit in the panel, but not there gfci classified breakers. The customer didn’t like the idea of a blank face gfci. Is there any gfci breaker that can a Crouse Hinds Panel? If not, any other ideas on how to gfci protect this fan/light? The fan and light is on a 15 amp circuit with the rest of the bathroom lighting. Another question, there is a 20 amp GFCI serving the sink, could I add a 15 amp receptacle below the switches that would protect fan and light. Come out of the four gang, hit the gfci receptacle below and then back to the four gang to protect the fan and light?
 
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Jimmy7 said:
Another question, there is a 20 amp GFCI serving the sink, could I add a 15 amp receptacle below the switches that would protect fan and light. Come out of the four gang, hit the gfci receptacle below and then back to the four gang to protect the fan and light?
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Maybe, is the entire bathroom on this same 20 amp circuit or does the receptacle circuit extend to other bathroom receptacles?

I have to ask, what's wrong with a blank face GFCI device?
 
Jimmy7 said:
Our customer’s house has a bath fan located in the shower that they want replaced . The panel is Crouse Hinds, and according to Eaton their regular Classified breakers will fit in the panel, but not there gfci classified breakers. The customer didn’t like the idea of a blank face gfci. Is there any gfci breaker that can a Crouse Hinds Panel? If not, any other ideas on how to gfci protect this fan/light? The fan and light is on a 15 amp circuit with the rest of the bathroom lighting. Another question, there is a 20 amp GFCI serving the sink, could I add a 15 amp receptacle below the switches that would protect fan and light. Come out of the four gang, hit the gfci receptacle below and then back to the four gang to protect the fan and light?
Click to expand...

What breakers are listed on the label of the panel? Most Crouse Hinds I've seen have MP breakers listed. If that is the case Siemens make the direct replacement for the MP breakers, no need for classified. Again depends on the panel label list.

It is interesting though how Eaton ended up with the Crouse Hinds from Cooper after the original had the MP line (Murry) of breakers which Siemens acquired.

This is becoming a larger issue as these old panels becoming needed replacement parts that are no longer supported by an original mfg., and the formerly reported replacements get acquired and reacquired by different manufacturers.
 
infinity said:
Maybe, is the entire bathroom on this same 20 amp circuit or does the receptacle circuit extend to other bathroom receptacles?

I have to ask, what's wrong with a blank face GFCI device?
Click to expand...
The gfci by the basin is on a 20 amp circuit, it does not power anything else in the bathroom. I’m not sure if there are other bathrooms throughout the house having their receptacles fed from this circuit. All of the lighting is on its 15 amp circuit in this bathroom.
In regards to the blank face gfci, the homeowner didn’t like it and asked to come up with another idea. Homeowners are difficult sometimes.
 
I would just use an Eaton BR and be done, but failing that, what about putting the blank face GFCI above or below the electrical panel? Would they be OK with that?
 
Jimmy7 said:
The gfci by the basin is on a 20 amp circuit, it does not power anything else in the bathroom. I’m not sure if there are other bathrooms throughout the house having their receptacles fed from this circuit.
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So if the existing circuit only powers the GFCI receptacle in that bathroom then you can add another GFCI receptacle along with the bath fan. If it extends to another bathroom then the fan cannot be on that circuit.
 
infinity said:
So if the existing circuit only powers the GFCI receptacle in that bathroom then you can add another GFCI receptacle along with the bath fan. If it extends to another bathroom then the fan cannot be on that circuit.
Click to expand...
It’s okay that the gfci receptacle feeding the bath fan would be on a 15 amp circuit, correct? It’s obviously not the receptacle being utIlized at the basin
 
Jimmy7 said:
It’s okay that the gfci receptacle feeding the bath fan would be on a 15 amp circuit, correct? It’s obviously not the receptacle being utIlized at the basin
Click to expand...
The GFCI receptacle cannot be on a 15 amp circuit.
 
CoolWill said:
I would just use an Eaton BR and be done, but failing that, what about putting the blank face GFCI above or below the electrical panel? Would they be OK with that?
Click to expand...
The direct replacement for Crouse-Hinds is Siemens. Siemens purchased Crouse-Hinds distribution equipment then renamed the company back to its original name (Murray). They eventually dropped the Murray name.
 
A bathroom can have 15 A receptacles (including GFCI) in it, but they can't feed any of the work surfaces that require 20A receptacles:

210.11(C)(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits.

As long as at least one 20-amp branch circuit supplies the bathroom receptacle(s) required by 210.52(D) and any countertop and similar work surface receptacle outlets, any other installed branch circuit supplying receptacles not serving the countertop can be 15 or 20-amp rated.
www.electricallicenserenewal.com

Sounds like what you really want is a blank face GFCI that looks and feels like an ordinary toggle switch. I don't think these are made, but perhaps a custom cover on top of a switch rated blank face GFCI...
 
Also: blank face GFCIs are really the best tool for this job. Ask the customer exactly what they don't like about the idea. Perhaps they just don't want to see the GFCI, or perhaps they specifically want the neat row of 4 toggle switches.

Pry a bit to understand what they actually want, and then sell them that.
 
curt swartz said:
The direct replacement for Crouse-Hinds is Siemens. Siemens purchased Crouse-Hinds distribution equipment then renamed the company back to its original name (Murray). They eventually dropped the Murray name.
Click to expand...
Eaton owns them now, so that's what I would use.
 
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