Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
- Thread starter George Stolz
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
I appreciate all the responses, but I am still on the fence on how I am going to proceed. I do not like making enemies, especially of the people I work with. But I respect the fact that you can't always be popular, difficult choices are thrust upon us in our lives. How we respond is a sign of our character.
I think I'm going to go with Todd, Jeff, Larry, Boss, and Ron on this, and talk to the journeyman and apprentice one-on-one. I am reasonably sure the j-man did the LV panel, and the 4-port plate; I'm sure the apprentice did the lights. We re-installed all the second floor of the last house, and the apprentice was the only one up there, same M.O.
I don't think my boss would be upset with me taking care of it, he's busy enough as it stands.
Truth be known, I believe piecework to be the true culprit of these problems, but I can't address that at this time. It'd be akin to urinating in church.
I appreciate all the responses, but I am still on the fence on how I am going to proceed. I do not like making enemies, especially of the people I work with. But I respect the fact that you can't always be popular, difficult choices are thrust upon us in our lives. How we respond is a sign of our character.
That's a great headline for when I print out this thread to show them.
In light of this and other issues, honestly, I'd rather not. But that doesn't mean that the pair aren't going to go somewhere else and repeat the pattern. Then, I'm enabling.
That's an aspect I hadn't considered. Am I stepping on my boss' toes by addressing this myself? The j-man has more seniority and more time in the industry than I do, so my feedback to him is somewhat muted by that.
That's exactly what I said when I walked in.
I think I'm going to go with Todd, Jeff, Larry, Boss, and Ron on this, and talk to the journeyman and apprentice one-on-one. I am reasonably sure the j-man did the LV panel, and the 4-port plate; I'm sure the apprentice did the lights. We re-installed all the second floor of the last house, and the apprentice was the only one up there, same M.O.
I don't think my boss would be upset with me taking care of it, he's busy enough as it stands.
Truth be known, I believe piecework to be the true culprit of these problems, but I can't address that at this time. It'd be akin to urinating in church.
JJWalecka
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
Georgestolz,
In my opinion, assuming the apprentice "installed" the Hack wiring the Licensed guy is also responsible. Perhaps this was how the apprentice was trained. Lack of supervision and non qualified workers was a definite issue and should be remedied immediately.
I think the employees should be address by you before someone gets killed. "Just because it can be done fast and easy doesn't mean its the safest way. Chances are the most labored way is the best." Quote from former mentor.
I have just completed an eight hour course regarding NFPA 70E. It was informative, refresher and an eye opener.
God Bless
Justin Walecka
Georgestolz,
In my opinion, assuming the apprentice "installed" the Hack wiring the Licensed guy is also responsible. Perhaps this was how the apprentice was trained. Lack of supervision and non qualified workers was a definite issue and should be remedied immediately.
I think the employees should be address by you before someone gets killed. "Just because it can be done fast and easy doesn't mean its the safest way. Chances are the most labored way is the best." Quote from former mentor.
I have just completed an eight hour course regarding NFPA 70E. It was informative, refresher and an eye opener.
God Bless
Justin Walecka
JJWalecka
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
Georgestolz,
I hate "rats". I never kiss butt to the Forman or owner. I try to prove myself by my work.
More than just our own life is at risk. I wouldn't want to explain to some fireman's daughter crying because at time of the faulty installation it was Friday afternoon and someone wanted to get done quick.
I would talk to them first but if not immediately corrected tell the supervisor.
Justin Walecka
Georgestolz,
I hate "rats". I never kiss butt to the Forman or owner. I try to prove myself by my work.
More than just our own life is at risk. I wouldn't want to explain to some fireman's daughter crying because at time of the faulty installation it was Friday afternoon and someone wanted to get done quick.
I would talk to them first but if not immediately corrected tell the supervisor.
Justin Walecka
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
I guess if you are in charge then you have to step up to the plate.
If ever need a cavalry I know where not to look.
I guess if you are in charge then you have to step up to the plate.
If ever need a cavalry I know where not to look.
davedottcom
Senior Member
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
George, it's painfully obvious by looking at their work that they have no interest in what they are doing and don't take their job seriously. I don't think you have a choice but to bring it to everyone's attention. The trick is to do it tactfully. Maybe take some pictures of your work and show them what you expect things to look like! Sounds dumb but some people are "visual" for lack of better term!?!? They have no idea how it should be unless they can "See" an example.
And then some people are just dumb and hopeless!
Good Luck!
George, it's painfully obvious by looking at their work that they have no interest in what they are doing and don't take their job seriously. I don't think you have a choice but to bring it to everyone's attention. The trick is to do it tactfully. Maybe take some pictures of your work and show them what you expect things to look like! Sounds dumb but some people are "visual" for lack of better term!?!? They have no idea how it should be unless they can "See" an example.
And then some people are just dumb and hopeless!
Good Luck!
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
Justin you are making no sense at all. In one breath you say you hate "rats". I assume you are just making an opinion on your rodent preferences, because then you go on to say you would tell the supervisor. Some would call that being a "rat"
I would call that being a responsible person.
Justin you are making no sense at all. In one breath you say you hate "rats". I assume you are just making an opinion on your rodent preferences, because then you go on to say you would tell the supervisor. Some would call that being a "rat"
I would call that being a responsible person.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
fc
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
I think you said that piecework was the cause of this.
Well next time you call in the crew tell them there are new rules like any code violation they fix on there own time or look for another job,or you can say any code violation you minus x amount of dollars from them per violation.
I would never have people working on piecework because your right--- you get what you got most of the time. They don't care they just want the money. Fast money.
I would without any problems show them the photos and see what they have to say and also ask them what they want to do about it.
I think you said that piecework was the cause of this.
Well next time you call in the crew tell them there are new rules like any code violation they fix on there own time or look for another job,or you can say any code violation you minus x amount of dollars from them per violation.
I would never have people working on piecework because your right--- you get what you got most of the time. They don't care they just want the money. Fast money.
I would without any problems show them the photos and see what they have to say and also ask them what they want to do about it.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
I thought indentured servitude was in the past.
Is any of that remotely legal?
I thought indentured servitude was in the past.
ty
Senior Member
- Location
- 3rd Rock from the Sun
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
No.
davedottcom
Senior Member
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
Offering a "bonus" for great work is legal though.
Incentive for doing something correct is much more affective than the fear of punishment if they don't.
If I ever have employees I swear I will do this. For every job they complete that has no fails, no problems and no call backs of any kind(for 30 days or whatever) they will get a cash bonus.
A small "bonus" is much less expensive for the employer than a service call back to a job for something. But at the same time those small bonuses or is it Boni!?! anyway, they can add up and be a great incentive for an employee to do things right ALL the time.
Sounds good in theory at least!
Offering a "bonus" for great work is legal though.
Incentive for doing something correct is much more affective than the fear of punishment if they don't.
If I ever have employees I swear I will do this. For every job they complete that has no fails, no problems and no call backs of any kind(for 30 days or whatever) they will get a cash bonus.
A small "bonus" is much less expensive for the employer than a service call back to a job for something. But at the same time those small bonuses or is it Boni!?! anyway, they can add up and be a great incentive for an employee to do things right ALL the time.
Sounds good in theory at least!
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
We'll see what transpires.
I don't think the drive behind this is greed, so much as self-preservation.
That's what I have done. I printed out B&W copies of the pictures, and left them in an envelope in the journeyman's box. All I wrote was "If this happened on your job, what would you say?"
We'll see what transpires.
fc
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by iwire:
Is any of that remotely legal? [/QB]
Yes it is legal if it's in an agreement. It's in place right now with our local. If a job is done with a code violation that person must fix it on there own time. I like that agreement. It makes the men asked question if they are not sure about a violation.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by iwire:
Is any of that remotely legal? [/QB]
Yes it is legal if it's in an agreement. It's in place right now with our local. If a job is done with a code violation that person must fix it on there own time. I like that agreement. It makes the men asked question if they are not sure about a violation.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
And I would laugh in the face of anyone that asked me to agree to that.
I am fairly certain that would be against the law here in MA. if the person is paid by the hour.
And I would laugh in the face of anyone that asked me to agree to that.
fc
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
Well I guess the Local Union here in NJ stands up for the workmanship of there men. I did not make the agreement They did. I guess lucky for us contractors.
Quote by Iwire
"And I would laugh in the face of anyone that asked me to agree to that. "
As a contractor you would. You would have to fix any violations you did for free right? It's the same thing when we hire Union men from the local we pay good wages for good work and they stand by there work with that agreement. I think it's fare.
[ January 17, 2006, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: fc ]
Well I guess the Local Union here in NJ stands up for the workmanship of there men. I did not make the agreement They did. I guess lucky for us contractors.
Quote by Iwire
"And I would laugh in the face of anyone that asked me to agree to that. "
As a contractor you would. You would have to fix any violations you did for free right? It's the same thing when we hire Union men from the local we pay good wages for good work and they stand by there work with that agreement. I think it's fare.
[ January 17, 2006, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: fc ]
ty
Senior Member
- Location
- 3rd Rock from the Sun
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
Agreeing into an illegal contract, would not make the contract legal.
It is the Contractor's responsibility to make sure there is no violations, (CODE or SPEC) not the employee.
This is why there needs to be SUPERVISION.
If it were legal to make the employee fix the violation for free, then you should be able to also charge him administration fees, labor for the Forman, re-inspection fees, etc... which you can't.
How about asking the FORMAN to fix it for free, after all, he should have been overseeing the job. See what he says.
If they were paid as sub-contractors, that might be different, but not for an hourly employee.
Now, I've said before, this person would probably be the next one I send into a crawl space, mud pit, or whatever bottom of the barrel task is to be done.
Agreeing into an illegal contract, would not make the contract legal.
It is the Contractor's responsibility to make sure there is no violations, (CODE or SPEC) not the employee.
This is why there needs to be SUPERVISION.
If it were legal to make the employee fix the violation for free, then you should be able to also charge him administration fees, labor for the Forman, re-inspection fees, etc... which you can't.
How about asking the FORMAN to fix it for free, after all, he should have been overseeing the job. See what he says.
If they were paid as sub-contractors, that might be different, but not for an hourly employee.
Now, I've said before, this person would probably be the next one I send into a crawl space, mud pit, or whatever bottom of the barrel task is to be done.
Re: Blood, guts, bullets and workmanship
When I worked for a company that hired only Union Teamsters, on the other side of the fence, we were taught, that a Union negociated contract is exempt from labor laws.
Basicly the Union has do do for it's workers.
The labor laws are for non-union workers.
When I called the labor department in my state because the employer was deducting from my wage for a dammaged bathtub repair, I was asked if the final pay check at the end of the week was below minimum wage.
The short answer was that an employer can "for cause" take deductions for damage caused by the employee, as long as the total hours for the week are paid for above the national minimum wage standard. This would mean that an employer could just extend the payments over a longer peroid of time. The employee could then either quit or take the lickings.
My personal opinion is that, if an employee is being paid piece work, the piece is not done, if the work is not done to standards set by the company. (this would, of coarse, include being code compliant.)
When I worked for a company that hired only Union Teamsters, on the other side of the fence, we were taught, that a Union negociated contract is exempt from labor laws.
Basicly the Union has do do for it's workers.
The labor laws are for non-union workers.
When I called the labor department in my state because the employer was deducting from my wage for a dammaged bathtub repair, I was asked if the final pay check at the end of the week was below minimum wage.
The short answer was that an employer can "for cause" take deductions for damage caused by the employee, as long as the total hours for the week are paid for above the national minimum wage standard. This would mean that an employer could just extend the payments over a longer peroid of time. The employee could then either quit or take the lickings.
My personal opinion is that, if an employee is being paid piece work, the piece is not done, if the work is not done to standards set by the company. (this would, of coarse, include being code compliant.)
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