dean belcher
Member
- Location
- El Paso
Does anyone know the requirements for storage of biodiesel and waste vegetable oil. Are these considered in the "class 1" div. 2. the question is how to wire in this type of enviroment.
boidiesel plant requirements
- Thread starter dean belcher
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petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: boidiesel plant requirements
Presumably, the people who designed the facility would know and would have prepared documents that described the classification of such areas.
IMO, bio-diesel and waste vegetable oil storage areas may not require classification.
The storage of other chemicals used (methanol comes to mind) might well need to be classified.
dean belcher said:
Presumably, the people who designed the facility would know and would have prepared documents that described the classification of such areas.
IMO, bio-diesel and waste vegetable oil storage areas may not require classification.
The storage of other chemicals used (methanol comes to mind) might well need to be classified.
dean belcher
Member
- Location
- El Paso
biodiesel storage
biodiesel storage
The manufacturer understood the methanol to be class 1 div 2 but the oil and
biodiesel didn't seem to fall into a hazardous class from what i could tell
biodiesel storage
The manufacturer understood the methanol to be class 1 div 2 but the oil and
biodiesel didn't seem to fall into a hazardous class from what i could tell
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: biodiesel storage
Re: biodiesel storage
If there is any classified areas in the plant at all, there needs to be a document that defines what the classification is and where it applies.
Most of the time what I have seen is a plan view with classified areas hatched in.
I don't know that an actual drawing is required, but some kind of documentation defining the extent of all classifed areas is.
Re: biodiesel storage
dean belcher said:
If there is any classified areas in the plant at all, there needs to be a document that defines what the classification is and where it applies.
Most of the time what I have seen is a plan view with classified areas hatched in.
I don't know that an actual drawing is required, but some kind of documentation defining the extent of all classifed areas is.
dean belcher
Member
- Location
- El Paso
biodiesel plant
biodiesel plant
Thanks for the info
biodiesel plant
Thanks for the info
megloff11x
Senior Member
Gasoline is group D. My understanding is that Diesel fuel is unclassified - as far as electricity catching it on fire is concerned it is no different than water. This is why they switched to it in vehicles in WW II. It won't burn readily when hit by enemy fire.
Look for your other chemicals. Methanol is on the list. Make sure they tell you what else they're using, no matter how little.
Look for your other chemicals. Methanol is on the list. Make sure they tell you what else they're using, no matter how little.
stormywyo
Member
- Location
- Stigler, Oklahoma
biodiesel has a flash point as low as 80. It currently has not been evaluated and classified by any testing agency. To say it is non-combustable would be a mistake. And I would definitely do my electrical installation the same as any combustable liquid.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
stormywyo said:
If that is the case, how would you go about determining what group applied and on what basis?
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
stormywyo said:
But diesel is not considered combustable by the NEC. Is the NEC wrong?
- Location
- Illinois
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- retired electrician
Tom,
Don
Petroleum diesel normal has a flash point above 100 degrees and is not a combustible liquid for the application of the NEC. If bio-diesel has a flash point of 80, then the area should be classified. Also there is no general statement about the flash point of a liquid and the requirements that the area be classified.
Don
megloff11x
Senior Member
It's a moot point since most biodiesel processes use methanol or other alcohols as part of the "brew." You are Class I Division 2 Group D anyway.
It's important to identify *ALL* of the chemicals involved, no matter how little is used. Your chemists developing the process may not consider a small quantity worth mentioning, or may not concern themselves with its flammability properties, so be prepared to use waterboarding or other means of extracting every detail.
Also, get a list of potential changes. They may decide later that adding chemical X enhances the process, but Chemical X is Group B or C, and now you have to replace a bunch of Group D only rated equipment.
And don't let them change anything without going through a review.
It's likely that the NEC 497 and 70 will have to add bio diesel if it is sufficiently hazardous and different from "regular" diesel to rate mention on "the lists." It's becoming quite popular with fuel at $3 a gallon.
This may affect the design of bio diesel dispensing equipment, which may have been less stringent owing to diesel properties, but not a processing plant that has other chemicals that rate.
We designed a plant and sold it years ago. We had large numbers of "enviromentally concerned" actors and celebrities fly out in their private jets, expending thousands of gallons of high octane jet fuel, to praise the bio diesel process, and decry any peasants who drove SUVs.
Matt
It's important to identify *ALL* of the chemicals involved, no matter how little is used. Your chemists developing the process may not consider a small quantity worth mentioning, or may not concern themselves with its flammability properties, so be prepared to use waterboarding or other means of extracting every detail.
Also, get a list of potential changes. They may decide later that adding chemical X enhances the process, but Chemical X is Group B or C, and now you have to replace a bunch of Group D only rated equipment.
And don't let them change anything without going through a review.
It's likely that the NEC 497 and 70 will have to add bio diesel if it is sufficiently hazardous and different from "regular" diesel to rate mention on "the lists." It's becoming quite popular with fuel at $3 a gallon.
This may affect the design of bio diesel dispensing equipment, which may have been less stringent owing to diesel properties, but not a processing plant that has other chemicals that rate.
We designed a plant and sold it years ago. We had large numbers of "enviromentally concerned" actors and celebrities fly out in their private jets, expending thousands of gallons of high octane jet fuel, to praise the bio diesel process, and decry any peasants who drove SUVs.
Matt
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
The Standard for classifying the material (rather than the "location") is NFPA 30. In cases like these, I recommend reviewing the MSDS. They are legally required documents anyway and usually record the level of volatility.
Often "Group" is missing.
In those cases, I generally treat the material as a Group C/D. The manufacturing standards for equipment, except lighting fixtures and a few heaters, are virtually the same for both groups. About the only thing you then need to know is the AIG and that is required data on the MSDS.
Often "Group" is missing.
In those cases, I generally treat the material as a Group C/D. The manufacturing standards for equipment, except lighting fixtures and a few heaters, are virtually the same for both groups. About the only thing you then need to know is the AIG and that is required data on the MSDS.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
flash point of biodiesel
flash point of biodiesel
http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/MSDS.pdf
according to this msds its flashpoint is well in excess of 100 deg C.
flash point of biodiesel
http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/MSDS.pdf
according to this msds its flashpoint is well in excess of 100 deg C.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
OK Don I see your point.
We need to step back and go to 500.4(A). If this classification document was provided it would clarify this and many other posts.
We need to step back and go to 500.4(A). If this classification document was provided it would clarify this and many other posts.
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