Bonding and Grounding Copper Pipes

[synchro]

Most jumper cables have copper plated steel wires. If you want to use the jumper frequently I'd recommend using a length of welding cable because it's finely stranded and can be moved around on a regular basis without fracturing the stands.
There are some ground clamps for welding that should work OK in clamping to pipe. I would look around to see which is best for your needs and will be secure enough.
Another alternative is ground clamps made for pipe like this one:

BURNDY C11HD-4/0-DB GRD CLAMP | Gordon Electric Supply, Inc.

BURNDY C11HD4/0DB GROUND CLAMP 1/2-1 DB 4/0 HUB

www.gordonelectricsupply.com

 

[Bro8898]

Like I said, there are bizarre possibilities but that is the general rule.

I'd suggest getting a clamp on current meter as a cheap fast check for the bizarro situations.

Jon

Good point thank you. A previous poster sent this pic. So in a system where the water main is metallic, the electrical current moves through the pipes and up the wire to get back to the transformer. It never really travels into the house piping, so to speak. As long as it’s a modern installation and installed properly. Does that sound about right?

 

[ptonsparky]

....

So if a pipe is in the ground and both sides are buried in the dirt, then I don’t really have a risk of getting shocked? But will it still break the neutral path and damage equipment?

Yes, you still have a risk of getting a shock. Remember earth is not a good conductor so there will be an elevated voltage between the two pipe ends.

 

[kwired]

One of my earlier questions was regarding with side of pipe where the grounding electrode conductor lands that the plumber is working on. If it’s on the side closest to the street (where the pipe comes in the house from being underground in the yard) that is where I’ve seen jumpers over water meters and pressure reducing valves etc. However on the “house” piping side of where the grounding electrode conductor attaches I have not observed jumpers. Now that’s just what I’ve traditionally “seen” but it doesn’t necessarily mean anything because I observed it. So from a plumber’s perspective (at least what I’ve seen on jobs and been somewhat trained on, which again doesn’t meant anything) it would appear that I need to use a temporary jumper when replacing sections of pipe on the “street” side of the wire and make sure I go back with metallic piping in order to maintain continuity. But on the “house” side of the wire I can take pipes apart without the need for a jumper and go back with pex. BUT AGAIN I am now learning from the people that know on this forum that if a utility neutral has failed (which is something I have no control over and don’t have the knowledge to know if it has failed one way or another) then if I disconnect metallic piping anywhere in the house I run the risk of getting shocked and/or damaging equipment if not using a jumper. So I’m gathering that I need to use a jumper that’s made specifically for pipes on all jobs just to be sure. Does most of that sound about right to you?

If you have an older home that has the water pipe bond somewhere besides within 5 feet of entry to the building, then you can have neutral current on whatever portion of line is between the bond point and the main supply line entry point. My comment was just to make you aware that that rule to bond within 5 feet of entry wasn't always there. The rule came partly because there is more interior line replacements (full or partial) with non metallic piping methods where at one time all piping was metallic for the most part.

Won't say there is no risk whatsoever but if working on interior piping beyond the bonding point that risk should be pretty minimal.

 

[kwired]

You can keep something like THIS on your truck to bridge the pipe when you have to cut it.

Roger

My concern with product like that is 14 inches isn't going to be long enough a lot of the time. I would think you want at least 6 to 10 foot long jumper or the ability to make up even longer jumper with a separate piece of conductor.

Something similar to what line workers use would be best, but the jaw on what they use most the time likely needs to be bigger for plumbers as a general rule, or have another clamping device(s) to fit pipe with some sort of smaller segment to allow line worker type bonding jumpers to clamp to that.

 

[roger]

My concern with product like that is 14 inches isn't going to be long enough a lot of the time. I would think you want at least 6 to 10 foot long jumper or the ability to make up even longer jumper with a separate piece of conductor.

Go to Harger or Burndy's websites and you will see they can be bought in different configurations and lengths along with clamps to build your own, notice I said something "like", not necessarily the exact item. We had DLO cables with clamps for jumping around items.

Roger

 

[kwired]

Go to Harger or Burndy's websites and you will see they can be bought in different configurations and lengths along with clamps to build your own, notice I said something "like", not necessarily the exact item. We had DLO cables with clamps for jumping around items.

Roger

What you posted link to seemed to be marketed for bonding around expansion couplings - that got me thinking they would be fairly short as a general rule. But great if there are longer options.

 

[ptonsparky]

Welding cable with crimped on lugs bolted to a couple c- clamps. My Ass Deg in Agricultural Engineering is coming out.

 

[Bro8898]

If you have an older home that has the water pipe bond somewhere besides within 5 feet of entry to the building, then you can have neutral current on whatever portion of line is between the bond point and the main supply line entry point. My comment was just to make you aware that that rule to bond within 5 feet of entry wasn't always there. The rule came partly because there is more interior line replacements (full or partial) with non metallic piping methods where at one time all piping was metallic for the most part.

Won't say there is no risk whatsoever but if working on interior piping beyond the bonding point that risk should be pretty minimal.

That’s exactly what I needed to know. Thank you so much. Again just to confirm, if I’m working on the “street” side of the bond to wire, I need to attach appropriate jumpers and replace existing metallic piping back with new metallic piping and then remove the jumpers. On the “house” side of the bond wire I’m generally safe to disconnect piping without the use of a jumper and replace with pex. I just need to make sure where that bond wire lands before I start working (because it can be anywhere in the house and not just within the first 5 ft on older homes). I think I’m finally starting to get it. Also if I’m working in the dirt and digging up the main service line in the front yard it’s good to use jumpers there too and replace with metallic piping. I think I’ve finally got it. Does that all sound about right to you?
Thank you very very much

 

[gadfly56]

That’s exactly what I needed to know. Thank you so much. Again just to confirm, if I’m working on the “street” side of the bond to wire, I need to attach appropriate jumpers and replace existing metallic piping back with new metallic piping and then remove the jumpers. On the “house” side of the bond wire I’m generally safe to disconnect piping without the use of a jumper and replace with pex. I just need to make sure where that bond wire lands before I start working (because it can be anywhere in the house and not just within the first 5 ft on older homes). I think I’m finally starting to get it. Also if I’m working in the dirt and digging up the main service line in the front yard it’s good to use jumpers there too and replace with metallic piping. I think I’ve finally got it. Does that all sound about right to you?
Thank you very very much

You might consider jumpering around the repair area inside the house temporarily, and permanently if you are replacing a short length of copper with something non-conductive like PEX. That way, even if there is a neutral failure, when you cut the pipe you won't have a problem.

 

[Bro8898]

You might consider jumpering around the repair area inside the house temporarily, and permanently if you are replacing a short length of copper with something non-conductive like PEX. That way, even if there is a neutral failure, when you cut the pipe you won't have a problem.

Ok I can do that but I’m a little confused again. If I’m on the “house” side of the bond wire it won’t matter if there’s a neutral failure, right? As far as safety and equipment goes, the only time I need to be concerned is if I’m disconnecting piping coming from the water main at the street until it reaches where the bond wire lands on the pipe. Is that correct?

 

[gadfly56]

Ok I can do that but I’m a little confused again. If I’m on the “house” side of the bond wire it won’t matter if there’s a neutral failure, right? As far as safety and equipment goes, the only time I need to be concerned is if I’m disconnecting piping coming from the water main at the street until it reaches where the bond wire lands on the pipe. Is that correct?

As has been said above, it might not be likely, but if more than one bond was made to the piping system for some reason it could happen. Cheap insurance, surely, to put in something like the bond between the hot and cold pipes at a water heater?

 

[Bro8898]

As has been said above, it might not be likely, but if more than one bond was made to the piping system for some reason it could happen. Cheap insurance, surely, to put in something like the bond between the hot and cold pipes at a water heater?

Very good point. I like that. That’s exactly what I came here for. Thank you so much for informing me that something like that is possible. Just as a side question: am I allowed to install a permanent jumper since I’m not an electrician? I’d have to be sizing the wire and trying to figure that out

 

[gadfly56]

Very good point. I like that. That’s exactly what I came here for. Thank you so much for informing me that something like that is possible. Just as a side question: am I allowed to install a permanent jumper since I’m not an electrician? I’d have to be sizing the wire and trying to figure that out

Mmm, not sure on that. Who usually puts in the bonding jumper for water heaters?

 

[hbiss]

Mmm, not sure on that. Who usually puts in the bonding jumper for water heaters?

What water heater bonding jumper? Where have you ever seen that??

-Hal

 

[ptonsparky]

I’ve done at least one, but don’t remember where.

 

[zbang]

What water heater bonding jumper?

I've seen a few.

To, ahem, muddy the waters here-
I don't think anyone has mentioned the possibility of dielectric unions either at the meter or at the house. If there is one at the meter and it hasn't been compromised, there should be no neutral current flowing out to the street main although some might actually flow through the dirt (but not much, dirt isn't a good conductor).

 

[Bro8898]

I’ve never seen a plumber here in bham, al install a bonding jumper. I’ve heard that that’s a job for an electrician, but I may be wrong. Which is kind of why I’m here...to avoid getting into a situation where I’m having to deal with electrical questions (or damaged equipment or injury).

There’s quite a few YouTube videos on bonding the cold to hot at the water heater along with the gas line. I’ve never seen it done and I know it’s not required here (not for plumbers at least). I think there’s mixed opinions about whether this is effective or not. That would be something that you all would be able to speak more on than me

 

[Bro8898]

I've seen a few.

To, ahem, muddy the waters here-
I don't think anyone has mentioned the possibility of dielectric unions either at the meter or at the house. If there is one at the meter and it hasn't been compromised, there should be no neutral current flowing out to the street main although some might actually flow through the dirt (but not much, dirt isn't a good conductor).

I would love to know the answer to that myself. I believe that the meter has dielectric fittings or plastic parts that require the installation of a binding jumper around it. But pressure reducing valves have them too and I know they don’t have dielectric fittings. Maybe it’s the idea that someone is going to be replacing the prv in the future and the pipe will be broken

 

[Bro8898]

Since you all have been so good about answering my questions (and I can’t tell you how appreciative I am for your help and insight), I have another one. What happens when a bare wire touches a metallic pipe anywhere in the house? What safeguards are in place when something like this happens?