Bonding for flex gas piping

[Dennis Alwon]

And I have done many and never been required to bond any of that. So go figure.

I figure your inspectors are slack. :grin:

 

[480sparky]

You are correct but the job will fail unless someone bonds it. No heating guy or plumber is allowed to enter our panels so there is the catch 22.

It needs to be bonded-- I never said the NEC requires it.

Besides...... it's wiring, so it's ours.

 

[BDB]

Local AHJ

Local AHJ

One of our local AHJ's has told me to not bond the gas in some apartments we are doing. The gas is all yellow TracPipe, no iron pipe anywhere. We are also required to keep all wiring at least 2" away from the gas pipe. I've no idea if this is a bad idea, but it's what he wants, and so it's what we do

 

[Dennis Alwon]

One of our local AHJ's has told me to not bond the gas in some apartments we are doing. The gas is all yellow TracPipe, no iron pipe anywhere. We are also required to keep all wiring at least 2" away from the gas pipe. I've no idea if this is a bad idea, but it's what he wants, and so it's what we do

It is a bad idea not to bond the trac pipe. As stated before houses have burned down because this piping was not bonded. Supposedly the bonding would have prevented the pipe from splitting when lightning hit the building.

 

[electricmanscott]

One of our local AHJ's has told me to not bond the gas in some apartments we are doing. The gas is all yellow TracPipe, no iron pipe anywhere. We are also required to keep all wiring at least 2" away from the gas pipe. I've no idea if this is a bad idea, but it's what he wants, and so it's what we do

There has to be a manifold that all the branches are fed from. That is where you would bond it.

 

[electricmanscott]

I believe so. If the black pipe coming into the building is bonded already there is no need to mess with the yellow stuff IMO. As a common sense thing if there are no electrons running about here, and it is not" likely to become enegized"(words of the BooK), no bonding equired.

You need to read up on this. You would be correct if this were ordinary gas piping but this flex pipe is an entirely different animal.

One job I am on the inspector asked why I bonded the stuff. I mentioned that the manuf require it to be bonded, he said he knows that but it is for lightning protection and that it only is needed down south.

I would not take a chance with this stuff. I know it needs bonding, I know the plumbers are using it, I figure it into the price of the job, and I do it. Not a biggie.

 

[wbalsam1]

Here's how we treat this issue in New York State:
http://www.dos.state.ny.us/code/CSST.htm

 

[billsnuff]

more info

more info

http://www.dps.state.ia.us/fm/pdf/2008/lightning_fires.pdf

 

[LarryFine]

Isolated how. If it is connected to the gas piping(black piping) and that pipe is bonded according to 250.66 then you don't need to go any further. You cannot rely on the egc to bond this pipe.

Here's what I'm saying:

This yellow-flex line was just added to run the three new appliances in what is now a kitchen. The rest of the gas piping in the building is black iron, and was already there. Whether that piping is bonded is not known, nor was it addressed.

That's why my question is whether I should run the ground wire to the rest of the gas piping, effectuvely 'bypassing' the flex, or just to the electrical service's EGC, possibly assuring placing an electrical strain on the flex.

My concern with the latter is, if the old pipe is not bonded, wouldn't my bonding only the new branch actually increase the risk of the flex being damaged by whatever possible currents are the concern of this bonding in the first place?

The only electrical item in contact with the branch is the solenoid valve, which has its own EGC, so the 'likely to energize' part is covered. The appliances are standing-pilot, so there's no concern there. This is purely the yellow-flex requirements.

I guess half of my question is whether I should also bond the old pipe if it isn't already. Again, only the new branch was addressed. It's basically a 'mini-manifold' made up of black-iron pipe and three T's, about 5-6' altogether, supplied by 45' of flex.


Added: If I have to bond this section of pipe according to 250.66, I could possibly have to run a 2/0 or 3/0 wire for 6' of pipe!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Larry I hear what you are saying, I think... If you bond the manifold it is connected thru the fittings to the black pipe. Many of the installations we do is to just bond the black iron at the entry and be done with it. The diagrams from the manufacturers show the connection to the brass fitting on the flex. This will also bond the black iron which doesn't need to be since the EGC effectively keeps the black pipe protected.

The whole issue stems from the very thin spiraled metallic pipe that is beneath the yellow jacket. Lightning has been know to travel thru a house and somehow jump to the flex pipe and split it open creating a flame thrower. Does the bonding work-- I don't know but I would guess it would.

I would call omegaflex and ask them about 250.66. The rep that came to one of our meeting said they he thought the info would change and that a maximum #4 is all that you need no matter what the service size is. It appears that info has not been update or he was incorrect.

As it stands now I would run the 2/0 or 3/0 and be done with it. I ran #2 on my last house for a 400 amp service. They even used the new counterstrike that apparently doesn't need special bonding-- I did it anyway cause I don't trust those fools.

Maybe I am the fool-- on the hill.

 

[LarryFine]

Dennis, did you get that I'm only asking about bonding a 6' hunk of pipe asembly, and not the building's gas-pipe system?

Okay, here's an electrical analogy: let's say we have an existing commercial service, say 1000a, and it's all run in RMC and/or EMT (This will represent the gas piping that's been in the building for 50 years, or since it was built.) But, the service never had an electrode.

Now, someone runs a new circuit from an existing box, with a 50' run of NM cable to a room, where it enters a box and changes to a 6' piece of EMT to feed a receptacle in a second box. (The EGC in the NM represents the flex pipe, and the 6' EMT the hunk of pipe in question.)

Now, let's say that there's a rule that the NM is permitted, but we are not allowed to use the EGC as an EGC, and an inspector says we must run a separate bonding wire from the new 6' hunk of EMT to a suitable grounding electrode, but no mention of the original missing GEC.

The question now is: Wouldn't there be a greater risk of damage to the EGC inside the NM with only the new 6' hunk of EMT bonded to the newly-established electrode, and the existing service is basically "floating", relatively speaking?

In other woirds, since the flex piping would only be bonded at the load end (or rather, from the load end), and something energizes the old, original, existing gas piping, wouldn't that increase the risk of damage to the flex?

Food for thought; I'll be back.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, did you get that I'm only asking about bonding a 6' hunk of pipe asembly, and not the building's gas-pipe system?

Isn't the flex pipe connected to the black pipe somewhere? I don't see how this 6' flex is connected to nothing. Either way it must be bonded. If you bond the black pipe then you are bonding the flex if they are connected to each other.

I must be missing something-- maybe a brain I don't know...:-?

 

[LarryFine]

Isn't the flex pipe connected to the black pipe somewhere? I don't see how this 6' flex is connected to nothing. Either way it must be bonded. If you bond the black pipe then you are bonding the flex if they are connected to each other.

I must be missing something-- maybe a brain I don't know...:-?

Okay, lemme try again.

This is an old building, which used to be a movie theater. They gutted the lobby and are converting it into a nightclub. The existing electric service (1200 to 1600a, I think) and the existing gas service (3" pipe where I could see the new tap) are as old as the building itself.

They tapped the 3" pipe with a tee and the yellow flex, which runs about 45' to what will be the kitchen. There, the flex connects to a 5- to 6-foot assembly of a manual valve, the solenoid valve, and three tees. There are three gas-only cooking appliances (and a plug in the last tee.)

I have no idea if the gas line was ever bonded to the electric service, nor was that ever brought up by whatver building official the customer talked to that mantioned having to bond this new 5-to-6' section of pipe. I can find out who that official was if I have to.

So, I was only told this new short section of pipe has to be bonded. It makes more sense to me to run this required bonding wire from this pipe to the old pipe at the other end of the flex, similarly to an external EGC on a length of electrical flex, than to the electric service.

As I was trying to say before, if the only gas pipe in the entire building that is bonded to the EGC is this new pipe, and the old pipe ever gets energized, that would guarantee that the yellow flex will be subject to potentially damaging current. Wouldn't it?

 

[radiopet]

lol....Yes larry......The VUSBC says it needs to be bonded and gives the locations the VUSBC wants it done at.

In Virginia, they want it done at the point it changes from hard pipe to the CSST flex with a standard pipe clamp on the hard steel pipe where it enters.

While the NEC is silent on it except in regards to 250.104(B) regarding the EGC for the provided circuit....the manufactures of CSST would like it to be 6 AWG because of legal issues with lightning and so on so it really is not for the "likely to become energized " issue.

Here is the QUOTE from the 2006 VUSBC :

CSST gas piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system at the point
where the gas service piping enters the building. The bonding conductor size shall be not less than #6 AWG
copper wire or equivalent.

Sorry....I forgot to add the chapter of the GAS Code that the change came from : Change Section G2411.1

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So, I was only told this new short section of pipe has to be bonded. It makes more sense to me to run this required bonding wire from this pipe to the old pipe at the other end of the flex, similarly to an external EGC on a length of electrical flex, than to the electric service.

How would this do anything if the old pipe is not bonded? The problem is the EGC is not enough to protect the flex in case of a lighning strike. There has been a hundred million dollar lawsuit that was settled a year or so ago against the manufacturers of CSST. Do a search and you will learn more about it.

You keep saying that you only have 6' of flex but you actually have 45' plus the 6'. The existing 45' should have been bonded but probably wasn't. Many inspection dept. are making ec go back and take care of these issues if there is csst on the job.

I also have no idea as to weather or not this bonding will solve the problem. According to Omegaflex it was really just one company that had problems with their piping. They said they never had a single incident with their product. All the mfg. got dragged into the lawsuit.

 

[LarryFine]

You keep saying that you only have 6' of flex but you actually have 45' plus the 6'. The existing 45' should have been bonded but probably wasn't.

No. Once more:

The existing piping is old, big, and of unknown length. It's probably there for the original heating of the building. The 45' is the length of the new CSST, and the 6' is the length of hard pipe at the kitchen end of the new run of flex.

Got it now? Old pipe unknown. New flex, new 6' of pipe assembly to serve the three new appliances. I was told that we have to bond the new 6' length of hard pipe, so it doesn't rely on the conductivity of the new 45' of CSST.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

No. Once more:

The existing piping is old, big, and of unknown length. It's probably there for the original heating of the building. The 45' is the length of the new CSST, and the 6' is the length of hard pipe at the kitchen end of the new run of flex.

Got it now? Old pipe unknown. New flex, new 6' of pipe assembly to serve the three new appliances. I was told that we have to bond the new 6' length of hard pipe, so it doesn't rely on the conductivity of the new 45' of CSST.

Thick I am, but I got you. I don't think it changes anything other than where to bond the csst. As stated before it is usually done at the brass fitting or to the black pipe. I am not sure if it makes a difference but I do see your point. You could jumper between the black pipes and still run back to the service panel but I am certain you have to bond that CSST to be compliant. Exactly the best way I am not certain.

Sorry it took so long to understand....

 

[hillbilly]

It seems to me that if you bonded the original gas piping, the 45' of CSST would be bonded by default.

I would look for a existing bond on the original gas piping.
If I couldn't find one, I would install one.

That leaves the 6' of hard pipe at the end of the CSST.
250.104(B) (2005) allows the Equipment Grounding Conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping to be used as the bonding means, so the EGC for the solenoid circuit would suffice.

The only problem that I see with this is if the plumber uses CSST to pipe the end use appliances from the 6' manifold.
This gives you a new section of CSST that must be bonded to the service.
That would be a new can of worms.

Just my opinion
steve

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Larry....If the CSST you are using is "Gastite", it only requires a #6CU for the bond per their instructions. The existing black pipe in the building is already bonded via the EGC of the appliances served by the black pipe. The only thing you need to do is tap an existing part of the GES closest to the gas meter, and run the #6 to the black pipe with the connection preferably outside or nearest the point of entrance on the inside.

 

[wwhitney]

The existing piping is old, big, and of unknown length. It's probably there for the original heating of the building. The 45' is the length of the new CSST, and the 6' is the length of hard pipe at the kitchen end of the new run of flex.

My take is that you need to ensure the existing hard pipe is bonded to the electrical service ground in order to protect the new CSST (according to the manufacturers). As I understand it, this can be done anywhere on the hard pipe that is convenient, since the hard pipe has low impedance.

I was told that we have to bond the new 6' length of hard pipe, so it doesn't rely on the conductivity of the new 45' of CSST.

That's a new one to me, but once you have bonded the existing hard pipe, you can then jumper around the CSST, no need to go back to the service with that jumper. Since you need to bond the existing hard pipe anyway, your concern that jumpering around the CSST increasing the hazard if the hard pipe is unbonded will be mute.

Yours, Wayne