Bonding Gas pipe from subpanel
- Thread starter JdoubleU
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Generally yes. The only thing that would prevent this is a rule that says it can't be spliced (which would apply to a ground electrode conductor and not a bonding conductor). You typically don't find permissive rules in the code, although they do list some. The answer to that question is "show me in the code book where it says I can't do this".
- Location
- Massachusetts
What gas pipe bonding are you asking about, in most cases the NEC does not require a specific bonding conductor to the gas line. The Equipment Grounding Conductor supplying the equipment the gas line is connected to can bond the gas line.
See 250.104(B) For this info and sizing requirements.
mcclary's electrical
Senior Member
- Location
- VA
The NEC is not the only book involved here. The IBC and UBC both mandate gas pipe bonding per manu. instructions. Which means, If the job has ALL STEEL PIPE,,,,,the bond can be sized accordingly as noted above and the EGC will cover you. HOWEVER,,,,if there is ANY CSST on the job(even a short piece behind the stove,,,THEN you CANNOT size the bond by the EGC,,,,,it will have to be a minimum of a #6 copper,,,,,and one manu, (wardflex) mandates the bond to be the same size as the GEC. And yes, it must go to the service pane and not subpanel. Don't listen to the guys that quote the NEC off the top of their head. Once you get into the REAL world the inspector uses many other sources besides the NEC. Take this advise from someone who ACTUALLY wires house for a living in many different counties and I know what inspectors are asking for nowadays.(at least in VA)
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Wow, that was harsh. :roll:
Most people base their answers to questions here on the NEC as that is the most widely used electrical code. (Not to mention that it is the basis for this forum)That being the case The NEC does not require any gas piping to be bonded unless it is likely to become energized. As far as I am concerned if I wire a building to the current NEC the gas piping is not likely to become energized and therefore needs no bonding.
If your area has adopted other codes that is fine FOR YOU but it does not apply to everyone.
In the real world where I am I don't wire to "what the inspectors are asking for nowadays", I wire to the code that is in effect.
By the way, the word is "advice". If you want people to take it you should at least be able to spell it.
:grin:
Most people base their answers to questions here on the NEC as that is the most widely used electrical code. (Not to mention that it is the basis for this forum)That being the case The NEC does not require any gas piping to be bonded unless it is likely to become energized. As far as I am concerned if I wire a building to the current NEC the gas piping is not likely to become energized and therefore needs no bonding.
If your area has adopted other codes that is fine FOR YOU but it does not apply to everyone.
In the real world where I am I don't wire to "what the inspectors are asking for nowadays", I wire to the code that is in effect.
By the way, the word is "advice". If you want people to take it you should at least be able to spell it.
:grin:
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mcclary's electrical
Senior Member
- Location
- VA
Sorry,,,I didn't try to sound harsh, but I can't stand these guys quoting articles that have little impact on the actual decision making. I pull permits in MY NAME,,,I deal FIRST HAND with the inspectors and if your job has CSST on it, it must be bonded by the man. instructions. or you will NOT get your inspections passed. NO MATTER what the NEC says. The EGC will not be accepted. No matter how many times you recite the code article. and about the spelling,,,,,,,,WE'RE NOT IN ENGLISH CLASS
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
First of all CSST is not installed by electricians therefore it's not the electricians responsibility to bond it. That the plumbers job and bonding requirements are part of the CSST listing which has nothing to do with the electrician.
For the record when you type in CAPITALS it's construed as YELLING. There's no reason to yell.
IBC is that root beer???
A/A Fuel GTX
Senior Member
- Location
- WI & AZ
- Occupation
- Electrician
First of all CSST is not installed by electricians therefore it's not the electricians responsibility to bond it. That the plumbers job and bonding requirements are part of the CSST listing which has nothing to do with the electrician.
I completely agree. HVAC guys and plumbers are using CSST at record paces and expect us to bond the junk as part of our bid. Not happening on the jobs I do. If they want to pay me to do the bonding, I'm on it. FWIW....why do they use CSST? Because it's CHEAP! Another nail in the coffin of quality.
- Location
- Logan, Utah
Actually the IBC has no such mandates for gas piping. The IFGC (International Fuel Gas Code) regulates fuel gas piping.
Chris
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
How dare you bring facts into the argument! :smile:
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
As I said, what happens where you are is fine for you but we are not all working in your area.
The funny part is the question didn't even mention CSST.
Now have a Root Beer and relax.
- Location
- Logan, Utah
As a wise man (Homer Simpson) once said "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!"
Chris
- Location
- Massachusetts
Pleses,...... please explain to me how NEC code Articles have little impact on actual decision making.
I know I am now highly impressed, you actually deal with inspectors ....... wow. :grin:
No one said this job has CSST in it and what may be true in your area is not the fact nationwide.
So do you include in your bid the price of bonding metallic water piping that you didn't install? Or do you expect the plumber to do that? Or do you specifically call out that you will bond water piping and any pipe types are extra cost?
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Mark,
I don't see how your argument is fair. The water pipe is specifically required by Article 250 of the NEC to be bonded, CSST gas pipe isn't. The additional bonding requirement for CSST is part of the listing from the manufacturer of the pipe therefore isn't not part of the electrical code. Comparing the too is like comparing apples and oranges.
- Location
- Massachusetts
To add to Robs post.
On an engineered job this should already be worked out in the contract and the electrical contractor should have been made aware of this from the start.
On jobs that are not engineered lets say the homeowner told the EC to price the job based on gas fired water heater but for what ever reason the plumber goes with an electric because it saves the plumber money.
Should the EC just 'suck it up' and wire it for free?
Same applies here, if the plumber chooses to go with CSST to save money then they need to pay an EC to do the bonding.
Wow, that was harsh. :roll:
Most people base their answers to questions here on the NEC as that is the most widely used electrical code. (Not to mention that it is the basis for this forum)That being the case The NEC does not require any gas piping to be bonded unless it is likely to become energized. As far as I am concerned if I wire a building to the current NEC the gas piping is not likely to become energized and therefore needs no bonding.
If your area has adopted other codes that is fine FOR YOU but it does not apply to everyone.
In the real world where I am I don't wire to "what the inspectors are asking for nowadays", I wire to the code that is in effect.
By the way, the word is "advice". If you want people to take it you should at least be able to spell it.
Touche!
steve
Why? A new house may not have any metal pipe to bond -- could be all PVC or PEX. Do you know if it will have metal piping before you start and is it covered in your bid? But if you have water pipe to bond, at least you do know what size wire to use in all cases (sized per 250.66). The code requires all metallic piping to be bonded if it could be energized. You could assume your EGC for a gas appliance is sufficient for that, but we know with CSST it isn't. I think you could also argue that a piece of CSST on something you didn't wire would not be part of the electricians job.
radiopet
Senior Member
- Location
- Spotsylvania, VA
Firstly, I happen to be one of those "off of the top of the head quoters" and I am also an the supervisor to the electrical inspectors and electrical plan reviewer for the City of Richmond,VA. Nothing in what I have read from the manufacturer and speaking with them directly and I might add having them come into our office to give a class on it leads me to think it has to go to the service panel in any way shape for form. The connection can be made to indeed the service panel as stated by the manufacturer but since you are spitting out mandates yourself and you are in Virginia I might direct you to the VUSBC which has a few things to say about the bonding of the CSST piping and is supercedes any IBC or IRC.
42. Change Section G2411.1 to read:
G2411.1 Gas pipe bonding. Each above-ground portion of a gas piping system that is likely to become energized shall be electrically continuous and bonded to an effective ground-fault current path. Gas piping shall be considered to be bonded where it is connected to appliances that are connected to the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit supplying that appliance.
CSST gas piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system at the point where the gas service piping enters the building. The bonding conductor size shall be not less than #6 AWG copper wire or equivalent.
So since you are talking about what VIRGINIA requires, who cares what the IBC says or the IRC says or even the Gas Code say....the Virginia Statewide Building Code is the law of the land in Virginia and it is clear on what it wants and nothing about it says that it has to go to the service panel.
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