Bonding the Neutral @ the Meter Socket

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If I bond the neutral and ground in the meter socket (Not a CT meter Socket). Do I bond the ground and neutral in the main disconnect or panel also. Addtionally, is a #6 CU or #4 AL largest I ever need to the ground rod even if there is no building steel or cold water pipe available or do I have to size the ground per Table 250.66
 
It's impossible to eliminate all parrallel paths on the supply side of the service disconnect. Think about it. Metal weatherhead - metal mast/riser - metal meter enclosure - metal raceway - metal service enclosure... all bonded togther and all connected to the service grounded (neutral) conductor.

250.6 is practically unenforceable...
 
Bryan: I'm puzzled. I thought the general rule was to bond the neutral and ground in only one place (with the possible exception that the POCO will also bond them in the service transformer for a 4 wire service.)

Isn't that what 250.30 (A) (1) is saying?

I know 250.30 is for "separately derived systems", but if the electrical service comes from a POCO transformer, isn't that also a separately derived service?

Steve
 
The code requires parallel paths at services if there is a TV calble system, a common underground metal water pipe system, or where metallic service raceways are used.
Don
 
Also consider that 250.24(B) requires the EGC's, the service neutral, and the enclosure of the service disconnect to all be connected together at the service equipment. Rember that meter socket enclosures are generally not considered to be service equipment. So anything on the supply side of the service disconnecting means only has the service neutral conductor and ungrounded conductors present. 250.24(A)(1) allows that service neutral to be grounded any point from the service point to the service disconnecting means.

So really, the description of the question in the first post isn't really accurate. The neutral is bonded to the meter socket enclosure and will be bonded to the service disconnect enclosure. And though it seems improper, there is really nothing preventing someone from grounding the service by bringing one GEC to the meter socket enclosure, and antoher to the service disconnect.

This however may be an arrangment that would and could violate 250.6.
 
stupid said:
If I bond the neutral and ground in the meter socket (Not a CT meter Socket). Do I bond the ground and neutral in the main disconnect or panel also. Addtionally, is a #6 CU or #4 AL largest I ever need to the ground rod even if there is no building steel or cold water pipe available or do I have to size the ground per Table 250.66
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If you lived in INDY you would never get power connected to a meter with a grounding conductor in it. It is not allowed by POCO here.
 
We bond our neutral/ground in both the meter and also in the panel,unless it is a split service then the disc. is the last point in which both are bonded.
 
Bikeindy, I bet they use the "GEC connection isn't accessible" garbage don't they.

Roger
 
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Just about every meter I install has the neutral buss on the can, no isolation bond by defacto. RMC required between meter and main. Main neutral needs to be bonded by code as well.
 
roger said:
Bikeindy, I bet they use the "GEC connection isn't accessible" garbage don't they.

Roger
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C'mon, Roger! What criminal mind could possibly overcome this fortress of defense?!?
imageswap4.jpg


:D
 
allenwayne said:
We bond our neutral/ground in both the meter and also in the panel,unless it is a split service then the disc. is the last point in which both are bonded.
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TECO demands we ground the neutral at the meter also wants the ground rod going there first.Other than using pvc how would you stop a parelel neutral ?
 
roger said:
Bikeindy, I bet they use the "GEC connection isn't accessible" garbage don't they.

Roger
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Nope They just don't want your Grounding conductor near their service lines.
But if you go east 6 miles to Greenfield you must have your Grounding conductor bonded in the meter base or they won't connect you. I just do what they want it is their property. I have to deal with three different poco's here
 
Okay, I'll show my ignorance here I'm afraid! I thought there was to be only one bonding point in the system and that it had to be at the first means of disconnect. The way I see it, there should be no "grounding" conductor between the bond point and the source (poco transformer for instance). If a power (hot) conductor should happen to come in contact with a box or other metallic item that is located between the source and the service bond (where grounded and grounding conductors unite) then the fault current would flow away from the source to the bond and then travel through the grounded conductor back to the source. So bonding the meter base to the GEC and/or having it bonded through raceways to the service panel should not constitute a parallel path unless the grounded and grounding conductors are bonded together twice.
Am I missing something here?
 
ramdiesel3500 said:
So bonding the meter base to the GEC and/or having it bonded through raceways to the service panel should not constitute a parallel path unless the grounded and grounding conductors are bonded together twice.
Am I missing something here?
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I agree with you Ram but the consensus here seems to be that it is OK to have the GEC and the grounded conductor connected at two points, the meter socket and the main panel. I was always taught that the GEC and grounded conductor are only connected at ONE point and One point only. I always bring my GEC into the first disconnect and never into the meter socket. BTW....how do we spell check with this new format?
 
There is a way to make it better, but you would have to change close to a hundreds years of grounding philosophy and put all the risk on the power companies equipment. That is not going to happen overnight... if ever.
 
stupid said:
If I bond the neutral and ground in the meter socket (Not a CT meter Socket). Do I bond the ground and neutral in the main disconnect or panel also. Addtionally, is a #6 CU or #4 AL largest I ever need to the ground rod even if there is no building steel or cold water pipe available or do I have to size the ground per Table 250.66
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To your first question, I would first ask: what do mean by "ground" ?
The ground from your ground rod to the meterbase is an electrode grounding conductor.
If your electrode grounding conductor is connected to your meterbase, then the grounds that you're bonding to the main disconnect housing and main neutral are equipment grounding conductors. Since they are different, it wouldn't be a parallel path.

But even if you were installing an actual parallel neutral and ground, it's not a violation when you're on the line side of the main disconnect.

ramdiesel3500 said:
So bonding the meter base to the GEC and/or having it bonded through raceways to the service panel should not constitute a parallel path unless the grounded and grounding conductors are bonded together twice.
Am I missing something here?
Click to expand...

A parallel neutral and ground on the line side of the main disconnect may be unavoidable.

e57 said:
Just about every meter I install has the neutral buss on the can, no isolation bond by defacto. RMC required between meter and main. Main neutral needs to be bonded by code as well.
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The neutral buss/bar is bonded to the meterbase housing. The neutral bar is bonded to the main disconnect housing. If there is metal conduit between the meterbase and main disconnect, the conduit is bonded to both meterbase and main disconnect housings. You have paralleled neutral and ground and that?s OK.

If I was inspecting your job, one thing that would ask you not to do is connect the electrode conductor to both meterbase and main disconnect. Pick one and stick with it. Metal conduit paralleled with the neutral from meter to main isn?t a problem, but a #6 electrode conductor paralleled with a large gauge aluminum neutral is bad news.

The Handbook picture on page #193 [Exhibit 250.8] shows you your options. The commentary after 250.24(A)(1) does a little more explaining. It?s your choice where to connect the electrode conductor.

David
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
TECO demands we ground the neutral at the meter also wants the ground rod going there first.Other than using pvc how would you stop a parelel neutral ?
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Jim there is no requirement to use pvc at all.If a rigid nipple is used a MIGB is required,that`s all.I stopped using rigid when it was allowed to use pvc.To me it is an easier install.Teco,Progress,Whithlacoochee all require that we ground the neutral at the meter.Now after the first point of disc. they are to be seperated.
 
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