Box Fill Remodel Recess Can

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Mustang4me2

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Naples FL
I have an inspector that wants to know what the cubic inch volume for box fill is for a remodel recess can which I have run 2 12-2 romex . The junction box is labeled maximum 4 of no.12 through branch circuit conductors . How does this translate to what the inspector may be looking for . The recess junction box is not stamped with cubic inch volume . Any insight would be helpful . Thanks in advance .
Andy
 
Mustang4me2 said:
I have an inspector that wants to know what the cubic inch volume for box fill is for a remodel recess can which I have run 2 12-2 romex . The junction box is labeled maximum 4 of no.12 through branch circuit conductors . How does this translate to what the inspector may be looking for . The recess junction box is not stamped with cubic inch volume . Any insight would be helpful . Thanks in advance .
Andy
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Many are labeled that way and IMO that overrides any fill requirements based on cubic inches, presuming the label is part of the listing.
 
The inspectors concern is the listing says 4 # 12 through branch circuit conductors . We ran 2 12-2 romex , and the inspector is saying the ground is also to be counted as one . Since it is not a box fill calculation I was thinking the ground wire may have been omitted from their listing .
 
Mustang4me2 said:
The inspectors concern is the listing says 4 # 12 through branch circuit conductors . We ran 2 12-2 romex , and the inspector is saying the ground is also to be counted as one . Since it is not a box fill calculation I was thinking the ground wire may have been omitted from their listing .
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An EGC is not a circuit conductor unless there is a fault.

It would not be counted here IMO.
 
Mustang4me2 said:
The inspectors concern is the listing says 4 # 12 through branch circuit conductors . We ran 2 12-2 romex , and the inspector is saying the ground is also to be counted as one . Since it is not a box fill calculation I was thinking the ground wire may have been omitted from their listing .
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Ridiculous. If box includes those small KO's for cable, it's intended for entire #12-cable assemble. Conduit only would be indicated.

Ask the smuck, if grounding is removed from #12 cable assembly, would GFCI protection pass inspection?
 
Box-Fill-Calculations-3.jpg


Well, I see three issues.

1. The ground is supposed to be counted as a conductor for box fill in field-installed junction boxes, so one might assume it would be uniform for boxes in a Listed assembly.

2. The idiot writing the label didn't think of that, and just counted the two hots and two neutrals.

3. The inspector can't use a tiniest amount of common sense to realize this.

96% of installed recessed cans out there have a cable in and a cable out.
 
jumper said:
An EGC is not a circuit conductor unless there is a fault.

It would not be counted here IMO.
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I agree.

Look at the Article 100 definition of Grounding Conductor, Equipment (EGC).

The EGC is the conductive path(S) between the normally non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment and the system grounded conductor or the grounding electrode conductor, or both.

The idea of paths (versus a single conductor) includes all manner of conductive paths of varied materials and construction.

But the definition does not mention "branch circuit" when talking about "conductive paths."
 
It is amazing to me that there are so many inspectors who look for crap like this. The can probably has an nm cable insert so what does he think it means-- nm without ground. He needs to look for something more concerning than that
 
Dennis Alwon said:
It is amazing to me that there are so many inspectors who look for crap like this...
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I'll bet it was the same inspector that did a house remodel before I'm there to do some more. I found a brand new bright yellow NM sticking out the back wall of the house. Live. Has been there for months since final inspection and move-in. Live. I'll bet the dog learned to not lick it.
 
Path of least resistance here, could be, measure the J box dimensions and just do the math, and see if the box fill is enough.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
It is amazing to me that there are so many inspectors who look for crap like this. The can probably has an nm cable insert so what does he think it means-- nm without ground. He needs to look for something more concerning than that
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With some of the things that we dwell on here, it shouldn't surprise you to see this. I think the language used on the box is suspicious. At the same time it would be very odd if the box was built for more than a dead end, but still wouldn't allow 4 conductors plus a ground. And it says, four through conductors, is that with or without breaks, etc. I think the verbage is useless, and if the inspector has a question just calculate the box capacity with a tape measure.
 
Strathead said:
With some of the things that we dwell on here, it shouldn't surprise you to see this. I think the language used on the box is suspicious. At the same time it would be very odd if the box was built for more than a dead end, but still wouldn't allow 4 conductors plus a ground. And it says, four through conductors, is that with or without breaks, etc. I think the verbage is useless, and if the inspector has a question just calculate the box capacity with a tape measure.
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These luminaires become less useful if the are designed for dead end only install. Plus how many 14 AWG does that equate to? Just going by 2.25 cubic inches x 4 = 9.0, we still can only have a dead end 14-2 with ground as two cables needs 10 cubic inches of space.

These are different then most boxes though, you generally have cable that has been fished, there is extra cable to allow pulling it out of the ceiling, fixed flush boxes are a pain to work in if conductor is too short these not so much, maybe that is factored into listing?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
It is amazing to me that there are so many inspectors who look for crap like this. The can probably has an nm cable insert so what does he think it means-- nm without ground. He needs to look for something more concerning than that
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Exactly my thoughts. Probably an inspector who was never an electrician.
 
Strathead said:
With some of the things that we dwell on here, it shouldn't surprise you to see this. I think the language used on the box is suspicious. At the same time it would be very odd if the box was built for more than a dead end, but still wouldn't allow 4 conductors plus a ground. And it says, four through conductors, is that with or without breaks, etc. I think the verbage is useless, and if the inspector has a question just calculate the box capacity with a tape measure.
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Yeah, true but it may be that I am reacting to stuff that is going on here where IMO alot of over-interpretation is going on. I am not anti inspector. I get along well with most all inspectors but my Yankee mouth sometimes gets me in trouble until they know me anyhow.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Yeah, true but it may be that I am reacting to stuff that is going on here where IMO alot of over-interpretation is going on. I am not anti inspector. I get along well with most all inspectors but my Yankee mouth sometimes gets me in trouble until they know me anyhow.
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I understand where you are coming from. I feel very much the same way.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Yeah, true but it may be that I am reacting to stuff that is going on here where IMO alot of over-interpretation is going on. I am not anti inspector. I get along well with most all inspectors but my Yankee mouth sometimes gets me in trouble until they know me anyhow.
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I totally agree with everything you say. here in Florida though it is only getting worse. Think about LB fill. Don't make them if they aren't big enough to fit wires legal for the conduit.
 
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