box fill trouble

[bob j]

I got flagged by the inspector today for excessive box fill , and can't figure out which of us doesn't know how to count.I had a 1900 bracket box stamped at 21.5 cu in. A 1/2" 2 gang ring stamped at 5.5 cu in. was added to that.The box contained 2 hots, 4 neutrals,2 switch legs, and 2 grounds( installation was in 1/2" conduit) all conductors were #14 gauge. Counting the ground once and adding the rest of the wires to the mix, I come up with 18 cu in. Add a double allowance for each device (2) I come up with a grand total of 26 cu in of fill.Have I miscalculated? Would the way I spliced the wires together have anything to do with the fill of the box? One of the hot wires I left about 12" long,skinned two 5/8" loops and spliced to the other hot.Not your typical pigtail, but it according to the inspector each loop I put on a switch counts as two wires fill.To bring this installation into compliance I had to take apart my "loop" splice and add two seperate pigtails for each device.

 

[steelersman]

I got flagged by the inspector today for excessive box fill , and can't figure out which of us doesn't know how to count.I had a 1900 bracket box stamped at 21.5 cu in. A 1/2" 2 gang ring stamped at 5.5 cu in. was added to that.The box contained 2 hots, 4 neutrals,2 switch legs, and 2 grounds( installation was in 1/2" conduit) all conductors were #14 gauge. Counting the ground once and adding the rest of the wires to the mix, I come up with 18 cu in. Add a double allowance for each device (2) I come up with a grand total of 26 cu in of fill.Have I miscalculated? Would the way I spliced the wires together have anything to do with the fill of the box? One of the hot wires I left about 12" long,skinned two 5/8" loops and spliced to the other hot.Not your typical pigtail, but it according to the inspector each loop I put on a switch counts as two wires fill.To bring this installation into compliance I had to take apart my "loop" splice and add two seperate pigtails for each device.

I think you are right and the inspector needs to review the code again.

 

[JohnJ0906]

..... according to the inspector each loop I put on a switch counts as two wires fill.

He's incorrect.

I've never heard of that one before.... :roll:

 

[William1978]

your right with your calcuation.

 

[joebell]

314.16(b)(1) 2008

314.16(b)(1) 2008

Would the way I spliced the wires together have anything to do with the fill of the box? One of the hot wires I left about 12" long,skinned two 5/8" loops and spliced to the other hot.Not your typical pigtail, but it according to the inspector each loop I put on a switch counts as two wires fill.To bring this installation into compliance I had to take apart my "loop" splice and add two seperate pigtails for each device.

There is a change in the 2008 code to 314.16(B)(1). I,m not sure if that is what the inspector meant?

Joe

 

[SEO]

Per section 314.16 (B) (1) a looped, unbroken conductor not less than twice the minimum length required for free conductors in 300.14 shall be counted twice.

 

[T's C6]

Per section 314.16 (B) (1) a looped, unbroken conductor not less than twice the minimum length required for free conductors in 300.14 shall be counted twice.

I concur, it is a change in the NEC

 

[bob j]

Per section 314.16 (B) (1) a looped, unbroken conductor not less than twice the minimum length required for free conductors in 300.14 shall be counted twice.

I think this is the section that he was quoting , but we're not talking about an unbroken conductor here. The way I understand this section it would mean that if I terminated a receptacle where the conductors loop through the box vs. having cut and pigtailed them there is no advantage as far as wire fill goes.It counts as 4 wires now regardless of whether or not it is pigtailed or I just skin back a loop to terminate. I interpret the wording of pre- 2005 editions to indicate that formerly, as long as two conductors were looped and not cut and spliced ,they would only count as 2 wires.Do you agree with this interpretation?

 

[JohnJ0906]

Per section 314.16 (B) (1) a looped, unbroken conductor not less than twice the minimum length required for free conductors in 300.14 shall be counted twice.

Yes, but the OP doesn't have a looped, unbroken conductor. It's spliced, therefore it counts as one conductor.

 

[chris kennedy]

The box contained 2 hots, 4 neutrals,2 switch legs, and 2 grounds

Are you sure you have enough neutrals?

 

[MF Dagger]

I think Bob and John are correct.

 

[SEO]

One of the hot wires I left about 12" long,skinned two 5/8" loops and spliced to the other hot.Not your typical pigtail, but it according to the inspector each loop I put on a switch counts as two wires fill. When I first read your post I read loops that were unbroken my fault. I agree with you that the conductor should be only one deduction. Per section314.16 (B) (1) each conductor that orginates outside the box and terminates or is spleced within the box shall be counted once. I think that your method is frequently used and takes up less box fill than using a wirenut.

 

[Smart $]

I think this is the section that he was quoting , but we're not talking about an unbroken conductor here. The way I understand this section it would mean that if I terminated a receptacle where the conductors loop through the box vs. having cut and pigtailed them there is no advantage as far as wire fill goes.It counts as 4 wires now regardless of whether or not it is pigtailed or I just skin back a loop to terminate. I interpret the wording of pre- 2005 editions to indicate that formerly, as long as two conductors were looped and not cut and spliced ,they would only count as 2 wires.Do you agree with this interpretation?

I agree with your interpretation... That is, a looped unbroken conductor that is twice the length of the required minimum amount of free conductor is required to be counted twice... by 2008 NEC 314.16(B)(1) requirements.

However, the code makes no mention of free conductor loops that are greater than 6", less than twice that amount (12"), and can extend at least 3" outside the opening. For example, if you have a conductor loop of 11 15/16" at the box, strip the insulation at the middle of the loop and terminate to a device, while leaving the conductor unbroken, it technically only counts once!

 

[steelersman]

I think Bob and John are correct.

But not the first one to reply? Not Steelersman? He couldn't be right though eh?

 

[joebell]

But not the first one to reply? Not Steelersman? He couldn't be right though eh?

Sounds like somebody needs a a hug))

 

[Dennis Alwon]

On another note if it is pigtailed then th last sentence should apply.

A conductor, no part of which leaves the box, shall not be counted.

 

[steelersman]

Sounds like somebody needs a a hug))

Sure why not? It just irks me being the first to respond and then that guy recognizes the others that chimed in after me as being right. Not that they copied me or anything, it's just irritating that's all. Now give me a hug!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Sure why not? It just irks me being the first to respond and then that guy recognizes the others that chimed in after me as being right. Not that they copied me or anything, it's just irritating that's all. Now give me a hug!

It happens to everyone sometimes it just the post that they read last. Don't take everything so personally.

 

[steelersman]

It happens to everyone sometimes it just the post that they read last. Don't take everything so personally.

yeah yeah yeah I know you're probably right Dennis.

 

[wirebender]

Sure why not? It just irks me being the first to respond and then that guy recognizes the others that chimed in after me as being right. Not that they copied me or anything, it's just irritating that's all. Now give me a hug!