Brain dead need HELP

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ceb58

ceb58

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Raeford, NC
I got a call around 5:00pm from a regular customer. The HO is having his bath remodeled that was added on in 1986. The carpenter tried to "short" the circ. for the lights to remove a stud, the breaker would not trip. HO replaced breaker with new one still will not trip breaker. Here is what I found ITE panel installed in 1981, the breakers that feed the bath were all tandem "piggyback" breakers. I tried shorting out the ungrounded cond. with EGC lights would dim but not trip breaker 15 amp. I then tried the grounded conductor same thing lights would dim breaker would hold. I did some more looking and found that some where the ungrounded cond. from the 15 amp is tied to a ungrounded cond. feed from a 20 amp tandem "they luckily landed on the same phase" I disconnected the wire from the 20 amp breaker and caped it off, I then went back and tried to trip the breaker same thing it will not trip. I think I know what has happened to a point. The 15 amp circ. feeds some lighting in the older part of home. I think that some one pulled a new 20 amp circ. for the recpt. and landed in a j box with the 15 amp. circ. and tied them together. But what I cannot understand is WHY cannot trip this breaker :-? . Going in the morning to find the j box in attic.
 
chris kennedy said:
Darwin???.
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Darwin_Award.jpg
 
It's obviously too much impedance, but you might have to hunt it down. It could be simply the entire circuit length, or it could be concentrated at a point.

It could be the there just isn't enough current to trip the breaker, and it could be bad breakers. Have a clamp-on ammeter handy?
 
Lets hope its still there in morning.I have seen taps off of range circuits that would never had chance to trip.Ivote for amp probe and apply a heavy load.Would not be shorting this as you might be doing damage or even cause a fire
 
are u CRAZY??!!

are u CRAZY??!!

ceb58 said:
The carpenter tried to "short" the circ.
I tried shorting out the ungrounded cond. with EGC lights would dim but not trip breaker 15 amp. I then tried the grounded conductor same thing lights would dim breaker would hold.
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This is why its a BAD PRACTICE to try and 'short' a breaker and get it to trip just to find out which one it is or to just turn off the power to something!! Here you are (and that carpenter) energizing some 'metal'(more than once even) that should not be energized and thankfully no one was shocked while touching something else. Sounds like theres a real 'dangerous' wiring job that had been done there previously!! Double fed and back fed circuits and an egc not connected, and it wouldnt suprise me if it wasnt bonded at the service panel, my God!! Maybe even the service neutral from the utility transformer could be a little loose! It just seems like when it did not work the first time you would have stopped there!!

Is it too hard to buy a good circuit tracer (some are now only $40) and do this the right way and trace it out??? What if it was a 'bad' breaker (one that just would not trip) its rare that these happen but i have heard of some that would not trip! and if all those ground wires are tied together, then each time you tried to short to ground you were energizing all the grounds that could be connected to other metal in the house!!

I strongly suggest you get a better understanding of how the egc works and a good circuit tracer to help you trace out circuits!!
 
Sounds like the neutral isn't bonded in the panel and you're not getting enough ampacity in the fault to clear the ocpd. If the fault gets on that neutral and back to the transformer, there shouldn't be a problem. The fault should clear.
In my humble opinion, I think it to be careless and risky to deliberately short circuit conductors to try to find out which cb they're "protected" on. :-? :smile: It's just something I wouldn't do. :smile:
 
brother said:
This is why its a BAD PRACTICE to try and 'short' a breaker and get it to trip just to find out which one it is or to just turn off the power to something!! Here you are (and that carpenter) energizing some 'metal'(more than once even) that should not be energized and thankfully no one was shocked while touching something else. Sounds like theres a real 'dangerous' wiring job that had been done there previously!! Double fed and back fed circuits and an egc not connected, and it wouldnt suprise me if it wasnt bonded at the service panel, my God!! Maybe even the service neutral from the utility transformer could be a little loose! It just seems like when it did not work the first time you would have stopped there!!

Is it too hard to buy a good circuit tracer (some are now only $40) and do this the right way and trace it out??? What if it was a 'bad' breaker (one that just would not trip) its rare that these happen but i have heard of some that would not trip! and if all those ground wires are tied together, then each time you tried to short to ground you were energizing all the grounds that could be connected to other metal in the house!!

I strongly suggest you get a better understanding of how the egc works and a good circuit tracer to help you trace out circuits!!
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You are correct to a point. The fact is I was protected from shock or burn. The breaker was new. I have a $90.00 circ. tracer but i knew which breaker I was after. I know what the egc is and what it dose. The bottom line is if the ungrounded conductor would have shorted to any metal item with the egc connected it would not trip the breaker and just burn. My way of doing it may not live up to your standards but what i was doing was in a controlled environment, all circ. are now unhooked for the night even though they have been this way since 1986, tomorrow I am tracing the wires from panel to j boxes to find out what is really going on.
 
You tried both a short circuit and ground fault method to trip the circuit breaker...and it was not successful either way. That is extremely unusual. If it did not trip as per a ground fault, that is not too difficult to figure out.

By not tripping the circuit breaker as per a short circuit, means there is definitely something very wrong here. If what you have described is accurate, I would contact the utility company if you do not come to a successful conclusion to your testing/visual inspection.

It could be a bunch of loose connections, or something similar to that. I think that is highly unlikely in a house.

I would take your tester out and start testing at the panel. Take a visual look at the panel for termination deviations.
Also look for discolored insulation or panel bus.

Then start looking at circuit wiring out to the device.

Please let us know what you find.
 
My first question is are you shorting hot to neutral or hot to ground?? I would amprobe the ckt while you are shorting not that this is a good practice.
 
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[
quote=quogueelectric]My first question is are you shorting hot to neutral or hot to ground??
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[/QUOTE]

BOTH

Let me add to those who have had the opinion that this was not the proper way of doing this, I agree, but through a series of events this problem has been found a problem for all I know has been this way for 26 years. I'm just trying to fix it
 
Interesting problem. I agree with Larry that this has to be a high impedence problem. What all is on this circuit?? Does anything on it work?? Dim lights? Had a call a while back where the HO complained when she plugged her iron in the living room, the lights went dim in the kitchen. Loose neutral in the panel. Voltage drop was not a factor untill the current went up high enough. As Pierre pointed out it is very unusual to not be able to clear a breaker with both a short to the EGC and a direct short to the neutral. I'ld put money on saying you will probably find a J-box with some s....ty connections in it!:D
 
ceb58 said:
[
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BOTH

Let me add to those who have had the opinion that this was not the proper way of doing this, I agree, but through a series of events this problem has been found a problem for all I know has been this way for 26 years. I'm just trying to fix it[/QUOTE]
It might be a bad splice on the hot and you will not know until you use your amprobe.
 
ceb58 said:
You are correct to a point. The fact is I was protected from shock or burn. .
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What about the 'equipment' or another person in the house or just outside the house that may have been touching something metal at that point in time and been grounded??
ceb58 said:
The breaker was new. I have a $90.00 circ. tracer but i knew which breaker I was after. I know what the egc is and what it dose. .
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Then I fail to see the reason you were trying to short to ground or to neutral!! Were you doing it just for fun, or to see the pretty colors/fire works?? you got the proper tools use them!! THINK about what you are doing!

ceb58 said:
The bottom line is if the ungrounded conductor would have shorted to any metal item with the egc connected it would not trip the breaker and just burn..
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Thats exactly my point!! Then why would you HELP it burn?? By you knowing this I really question rather you have thought this thru!!

ceb58 said:
My way of doing it may not live up to your standards but what i was doing was in a controlled environment, all circ. are now unhooked for the night even though they have been this way since 1986, tomorrow I am tracing the wires from panel to j boxes to find out what is really going on.
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I really do not think you had as much control as you think you did!! How can you claim it was like this since '1986'?? You cant be sure when this problem developed or how bad it was. Were you able to be 100% sure that nothing was 'burning', melting to the point of fire (no hidden j box, or loose connection in the panel or garage or something touching the insulation in the walls etc..) and that NO one in that house or 'close to the house outside was touching someting metal at the time you were doing this 'shorting to ground'?? How can you possibly claim this was a 'controlled' enviroment??? I think you having delusions of grandeur.

As for my 'standards', I just believe using the right tools for the proper and SAFE trouble shooting of a job. You claim to have these tools, then i have to wonder do you really know the full potential of how to use them. Even a megger can you show you if there was high resistance/impedence some where. For safety of your customers please stop that silly practice and just take the proper time to trouble shoot safely!! If you going to 'trace' the wires now, why couldnt you do that BEFORE you started 'shorting to ground'??
 
In 1986 when the bath was first put in, a wire or two needed to be relocated

but a hack just cut it (them) and refed the first thing that got things going

agian. Unaware that the 'fix' was tied together elsewhere. Along comes this

carpenter, shorts this (these) circuit out about 10 times, can't do it, then

calls you.

I'm wondering how many backstabbed devices got real 'warm' or loose wire-

nuts, how many paths are there for the EGC and the grounded conductor to

take, splitting the current each time, then throw the high impedance on top

of that--- Why would it trip? :)
 
benaround said:
In 1986 when the bath was first put in, a wire or two needed to be relocated

but a hack just cut it (them) and refed the first thing that got things going

agian. Unaware that the 'fix' was tied together elsewhere. Along comes this

carpenter, shorts this (these) circuit out about 10 times, can't do it, then

calls you.

I'm wondering how many backstabbed devices got real 'warm' or loose wire-

nuts, how many paths are there for the EGC and the grounded conductor to

take, splitting the current each time, then throw the high impedance on top

of that--- Why would it trip? :)
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Click to expand...

I found out I knew the the guy that did this wiring (dead now). I found the problem by just getting in the attic and tracing wires. Once upon a time in 1986 there was more remodeling done than I knew about. Bed room and bath added, kitchen extended and deck enclosed to make sun room. The elect. pulled a 20amp. circ. from panel to switch box ( I can only assume to power garbage disposal) in the box was also a 15amp home run to power light in kitchen, bath lights and recpt. in sun room.
Probably between rough in and trim out the elect. or his helper "forgot" what they had done. The 20 and 15 were tied together luckily landing on the same phase in the panel. I disconnected the 20 amp home run found the feed to the bath lights and disconnected from the 15 amp circ. I then tied the 20 amp HR to the bath feed and installed a new 15amp breaker. Now the kitchen lights and sun room recp. are on their circ. and the bath lights are on their own circ. This has been like that for 22 years.
 
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