Branch circuit definition

[jumper]

Bottom line in any case is where is the outlet?

The local mall perhaps.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I thought I did. Bottom line in any case is where is the outlet? The branch circuit ends there.

The Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System) is careful to tell us that the wiring that is assembled by the manufacturer as part of the assembly of the Luminaire is NOT part of the Premises Wiring between the source and the outlet.

2014 NEC Article 100 Definitions.

Premises Wiring (System). Interior and exterior wiring, including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices, both permanently and temporarily installed. This includes (a) wiring from the service point or power source to the outlets or (b) wiring from and including the power source to the outlets where there is no service point.
Such wiring does not include wiring internal to appliances, luminaires, motors, controllers, motor control centers, and similar equipment.

One can't differentiate between the factory whip on an Oven (appliance), and the factory whip on a Luminaire

 

[kwired]

The Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System) is careful to tell us that the wiring that is assembled by the manufacturer as part of the assembly of the Luminaire is NOT part of the Premises Wiring between the source and the outlet.



One can't differentiate between the factory whip on an Oven (appliance), and the factory whip on a Luminaire

Which leaves us with one luminaire with a factor installed whip not being premises wiring and the one next to it may have been field installed but is otherwise identical, but that one is premises wiring.

I understand but sometimes things in code do not always make total sense.

 

[iwire]

Which leaves us with one luminaire with a factor installed whip not being premises wiring and the one next to it may have been field installed but is otherwise identical, but that one is premises wiring.

I understand but sometimes things in code do not always make total sense.

But it does make perfect sense

One is basically already inspected due to its listing and the other needs feild inspection.

 

[kwired]

But it does make perfect sense

One is basically already inspected due to its listing and the other needs feild inspection.

Are you going to go around a facility with hundreds of luminaires and tell inspector which ones were field installed and which ones were factory installed?

If inspector would want me to do this then I guess I would do one of two things, give him random ones to look at that even I may not have a clue whether or not they were field installed, or tell him just how ridiculous of a request this is and if he can't figure it out that is his problem.

I get what it says, reality is you may have same installation either way in some instances, besides factory installed items can have mistakes sometimes as well.

 

[iwire]

IMO it is you that is creating ridiculous scenarios.

I am not seeing these hardships and I work for a company doing tens of millions a year in new construction.

 

[kwired]

IMO it is you that is creating ridiculous scenarios.

I am not seeing these hardships and I work for a company doing tens of millions a year in new construction.

You mentioned the field installed whip needs field inspected, do you point out to your inspectors every field installed whip or do they generally just sort of assume they are ok whether field installed or not? Maybe if they see something out of the ordinary I could understand them looking a little harder at what might be going on. I certainly never pointed out such a thing and can't ever recall being asked such things from an inspector, most of the time they will never know if they were field installed or not and generally don't care. Maybe if homeowner Joe did his own work they look much harder at little details like this.

Yet the topic of discussion did ask where the branch circuit ends. My answer still is at the outlet, which may be in the junction box in some cases or may be in the luminaire in others, whether anything is inspected or not.

 

[al hildenbrand]

My answer still is at the outlet, which may be in the junction box in some cases or may be in the luminaire in others, whether anything is inspected or not.

I have found that some of the most invigorating and informative discussions on this Forum surround the most elemental term "Outlet." The goal is to assemble things, mechanically, from the written word of the Code in order to provide power, light and communication. The better I understand the written word, the more certain is my mechanical assembly, and the less I involve the inspector.

 

[iwire]

Yet the topic of discussion did ask where the branch circuit ends. My answer still is at the outlet, which may be in the junction box in some cases or may be in the luminaire in others,

We are all in agreement there and Al has presented a solid argument where it is or is not.

 

[wwhitney]

The Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System) is careful to tell us that the wiring that is assembled by the manufacturer as part of the assembly of the Luminaire is NOT part of the Premises Wiring between the source and the outlet.

Bit of a devil's advocate here: actually the wording says nothing about who assembled the wiring. The part you are referring to:

Premises Wiring (System). [. . .] Such wiring does not include wiring internal to appliances, luminaires, motors, controllers, motor control centers, and similar equipment.

One could argue that the whip isn't "internal" to the equipment. It is obviously sticking out, it is "external". A luminaire may have both internal and external wiring, and while the internal wiring is definitely excluded from the Premises Wiring, the external wiring could become part of the Premises Wiring once the luminaire is installed.

I'm not necessarily embracing this point of view, I just don't think it is a clear cut case of manufacturer assembled versus field installed.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[kwired]

Bit of a devil's advocate here: actually the wording says nothing about who assembled the wiring. The part you are referring to:



One could argue that the whip isn't "internal" to the equipment. It is obviously sticking out, it is "external". A luminaire may have both internal and external wiring, and while the internal wiring is definitely excluded from the Premises Wiring, the external wiring could become part of the Premises Wiring once the luminaire is installed.

I'm not necessarily embracing this point of view, I just don't think it is a clear cut case of manufacturer assembled versus field installed.

Cheers, Wayne

:thumbsup:

Now Bob might consider some of what I have said since I am no longer the only one saying it

 

[al hildenbrand]

One could argue that the whip isn't "internal" to the equipment. It is obviously sticking out, it is "external". A luminaire may have both internal and external wiring, and while the internal wiring is definitely excluded from the Premises Wiring, the external wiring could become part of the Premises Wiring once the luminaire is installed.

So, when I hang this cord pendant luminaire:

from a strain relief cord connector in a 1/2" K.O. in a 4" square blank metal cover of a metal 4" X 4" X 1-1/2" metal junction box that is surface mounted. . . you are claiming the Outlet is in the white globe?

 

[wwhitney]

For the pendant light, the outlet is probably at the junction box. What gives me pause is the case of a pendant receptacle. Where's the outlet then?

Regardless, I thought we were talking about a luminaire or an appliance with an integral wiring compartment, a whip comprised of a Chapter 3 wiring method, and then another junction box. In which case I would say it is not clear which end of the whip is the outlet.

For the claim that it matters whether the connection between the whip and internal wiring compartment was made in the field or in the factory, do you have any wording in the NEC to support that, besides the word "internal" in the definition of the Premises Wiring System? Because I don't think the word "internal" clarifies the situation.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[kwired]

So, when I hang this cord pendant luminaire:

from a strain relief cord connector in a 1/2" K.O. in a 4" square blank metal cover of a metal 4" X 4" X 1-1/2" metal junction box that is surface mounted. . . you are claiming the Outlet is in the white globe?

Vicious circle, now we are right back to whether or not the cord was field installed or factory installed. One difference here is the whip on the fluorescent troffer is likely left as is and landed in a junction box, the cord on this pendant may be cut to desired length before installation.