Branch wiring for small hotel

[MGest]

Hi Everyone!

Someone just sent me a project to estimate, it is a relatively small hotel with about 40 units. Does anyone have experience with figuring out an average run per homerun/lighting/switch/receptacle point? Figure an average of 560 sqf per room. Thank you so much!

 

[cdslotz]

Do a takeoff of one room in detail. Multiply typical units.
If you want average, divide the footage for receptacles by the number of receptacles...should be around 17'/ea

 

[hbiss]

We just had a similar question the other day. There is no reason you can't share some circuits between rooms.

-Hal

 

[MGest]

We just had a similar question the other day. There is no reason you can't share some circuits between rooms.

-Hal

Even if each room has its own panel?

 

[MGest]

T

Do a takeoff of one room in detail. Multiply typical units.
If you want average, divide the footage for receptacles by the number of receptacles...should be around 17'/ea

Thanks! I'm assuming same applies if I want an average for lighting outlets also?

 

[cdslotz]

T

Thanks! I'm assuming same applies if I want an average for lighting outlets also?

Of course....anything that is repetitious can have an average

 

[hbiss]

Even if each room has its own panel?

Why does each room have it's own panel? These aren't apartments. The cost will be significantly lower with panels located in common areas like electrical rooms or hallways and circuits shared where possible between rooms. The demand from each room just doesn't justify a dedicated panel to begin with.

-Hal

 

[cdslotz]

Why does each room have it's own panel? These aren't apartments. The cost will be significantly lower with panels located in common areas like electrical rooms or hallways and circuits shared where possible between rooms. The demand from each room just doesn't justify a dedicated panel to begin with.

-Hal

If that's how the engineer designed it...why ask?

 

[kwired]

Why does each room have it's own panel? These aren't apartments. The cost will be significantly lower with panels located in common areas like electrical rooms or hallways and circuits shared where possible between rooms. The demand from each room just doesn't justify a dedicated panel to begin with.

-Hal

Never wired a hotel/motel but if it is my design think I at least would put many receptacles back to back receptacles on same wall on same circuit just to lessen copper usage.

If the rooms qualify as dwelling units maybe a different situation though.

 

[hbiss]

If that's how the engineer designed it...why ask?

Because I get the impression that this is a design/build.

-Hal

 

[James L]

I most definitely agree with putting panels in the hallways.

I probably wouldn't share circuits between rooms, because there are microwaves, coffee pots, etc in many hotel rooms. I'd give each space their own circuits. What are we talking, maybe a bathroom circuit, 1 general circuit, and a PTAC?

 

[ramsy]

My first clue this trade offers opportunity for improvement was apprenticing for a design-builder, roughing-in branch-circuit cables down hallways of a hotel.

That contractor took 4 doses of Advil a day for tennis elbow, before his hole hog got thru all the framing & nails.

Shortly after this carnage the union took me, then spit me out, to develop my own service business.

Now I see, Article 220 load Calc for similar 560 sq.ft suites without cooking appliances would include the bath plugs, + 1 SABC, + 3kVA PTAC nameplate for ~27 Amps max.

This 10/3 feeder w/ sub-panels is less copper & rough in hallways, less feeder panels, and perhaps more repetitious roping, delegated to helpers.

However, leaving this debate and the tennis elbow to you fine people is Ok with me.

 

[kwired]

My first clue this trade offers opportunity for improvement was apprenticing for a design-builder, roughing-in branch-circuit cables down hallways of a hotel.

That contractor took 4 doses of Advil a day for tennis elbow, before his hole hog got thru all the framing & nails.

Shortly after this carnage the union took me, then spit me out, to develop my own service business.

Now I see, Article 220 load Calc for similar 560 sq.ft suites without cooking appliances would include the bath plugs, + 1 SABC, + 3kVA PTAC nameplate for ~27 Amps max.

This 10/3 feeder w/ sub-panels is less copper & rough in hallways, less feeder panels, and perhaps more repetitious roping, delegated to helpers.

However, leaving this debate and the tennis elbow to you fine people is Ok with me.

? You still have a run to every room, and a feeder panel in every room. Why not one feeder/panel for every 6-12 rooms or so and locate it somewhat centrally to those rooms? You can put it in the hallway and get a cover with a lock on it if you don't want people messing with it. Go with feed thru lugs and you can serve several panels with just one larger feeder, or put feeder breaker in at certain intervals as load diminishes and reduce the feeder size as you progress through the run.

 

[ramsy]

Do Tap rules allow cable-wiring to change size between lugs more than once?

 

[MGest]

Why does each room have it's own panel? These aren't apartments. The cost will be significantly lower with panels located in common areas like electrical rooms or hallways and circuits shared where possible between rooms. The demand from each room just doesn't justify a dedicated panel to begin with.

-Hal

True, but I'm just the estimator and I don't get to make the big decisions lol.

 

[MGest]

Never wired a hotel/motel but if it is my design think I at least would put many receptacles back to back receptacles on same wall on same circuit just to lessen copper usage.

If the rooms qualify as dwelling units maybe a different situation though.

Good point you make. That's the problem- each room is its own dwelling unit and therefore assumed that two diff units cannot share the same circuit.

 

[Fred B]

Good point you make. That's the problem- each room is its own dwelling unit and therefore assumed that two diff units cannot share the same circuit.

Not sure, if each unit per local jurisdiction says they are each independently fire seperated then maybe, but if fire seperation is only every x number of units as it is around here then they are not. Found nothing in code reference that requires each room be treated independently with seperate branch circuits. Circuits strictly per code are as any other dwelling type are load demand specific. Guest's convenience factor may be a consideration that would put each room on it's own circuit(s), or local AHJ requirements. There are multiple references in Article 200 specific to hotel/motels/guest rooms and suites.

 

[kwired]

Not sure, if each unit per local jurisdiction says they are each independently fire seperated then maybe, but if fire seperation is only every x number of units as it is around here then they are not. Found nothing in code reference that requires each room be treated independently with seperate branch circuits. Circuits strictly per code are as any other dwelling type are load demand specific. Guest's convenience factor may be a consideration that would put each room on it's own circuit(s), or local AHJ requirements. There are multiple references in Article 200 specific to hotel/motels/guest rooms and suites.

Need to double check, might be some issues sharing SABC's between units, but most everything else I think could. Could probably put more than one bath on a circuit but would be a bad design decision.

I don't think anything would prohibit multiple (guest suite) dwellings supplied via a single panel, might not be able to do so if panel is in one unit and supplies others, if that is allowed probably not a good design decision.

 

[James L]

Sharing any circuits between suites would be goofy

Besides circuit functionality, it would destroy job efficiency. You wanna waste a bunch if man hours? Design it so your ekectrucians send half their time walking up and down the hallway to keep looking at the print to make sure they're wiring it right.

Second guessing what openings from one unit to another still need to be fed, possibly missing wires. Especially if multioke guys man the job.

Best way is do every single unit exactly the same.

If it's spec'd to have a panel in each room, I'd put a 6 or 8 circuit panel just inside the door, fed with 30 or 40 amps, and put a bathroom circuit, a general circuit, and PTAC.

Every room.

 

[kwired]

Sharing any circuits between suites would be goofy

Besides circuit functionality, it would destroy job efficiency. You wanna waste a bunch if man hours? Design it so your ekectrucians send half their time walking up and down the hallway to keep looking at the print to make sure they're wiring it right.

Second guessing what openings from one unit to another still need to be fed, possibly missing wires. Especially if multioke guys man the job.

Best way is do every single unit exactly the same.

If it's spec'd to have a panel in each room, I'd put a 6 or 8 circuit panel just inside the door, fed with 30 or 40 amps, and put a bathroom circuit, a general circuit, and PTAC.

Every room.

If they are dwelling units they also need at least two SABC's, maybe a dishwasher or even a laundry circuit in some cases - think resort type places where guests typically stay for more than just a night or two at at time. Though most those I been to are built more like an apartment complex than typical hotel rooms, but I have been to some that are hotel room style but do have kitchens in them.