Breaker requirements for panel upgrade

LarryFine said:
The homes I grew up in had fuses, and nothing ever failed to work properly.
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Same here, in a 1950's rambler with 50A FPE load center, & 2-prong plugs on snake-skin cable.

When distribution voltage (my speculation) occurred on neutral, an extremely noisy arc persisted from outlet to plumbing under the sink.

Electricians came & ran away. My Dad drove a ground rod outside, next to kitchen clean out.
 
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A very big issue that will occur if on replacing a service and distribution panel and if you are required add AFCI on existing circuits is real a potential for tripping due to common tied neutrals in a j-box somewhere. Now you have to try to "find" the offending j-box that could be buried most anywhere.
 
Was this implemented because some installs just have a Meter pan outside and the first over-current device is on the inside. Heck that is the way I have always done it. A few older places in my locale still have it that way.
 
electrofelon said:
IMO more states should stop blindly adopting NEC BS.
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We will be adopting 2023 in a month or two. Was still on 2017. Amendments will basically make 210.8 mostly the same as it was for 2017. So no required GFCI's for most 240 volt receptacles at dwellings is kind of a big thing. AFCI requirements are untouched, but really not much if any difference than 2017 requirements were. They also amended out the "Emergency disconnect" rules, that one surprised me a little that they did that.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Was this implemented because some installs just have a Meter pan outside and the first over-current device is on the inside. Heck that is the way I have always done it. A few older places in my locale still have it that way.
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I kind of don't think that is why. NEC still allowed just meter pan outside when this rule came up. More like there is many times when you change out a load center you possibly need to make somewhat minor adjustments to it's positioning, it may be larger than what you replaced and not all existing conductors will reach their destination and things like that would be my guess.
 
Fred B said:
A very big issue that will occur if on replacing a service and distribution panel and if you are required add AFCI on existing circuits is real a potential for tripping due to common tied neutrals in a j-box somewhere.
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About 20 years ago GE was first to pass UL 1699 for a circuit breaker without GFPE, but Leviton already had AFCI outlets without GFPE.

The way electrofelon just complained about inspections in Upstate New York, sounds like you guys must hire inspectors from entry level. Probably not the only AHJ dealing with qualified persons moving away for higher wages.
Fred B said:
Now you have to try to "find" the offending j-box that could be buried most anywhere.
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Panel flippers wont remove shoes before traipsing dirt all over the carpet, much less climb in crawl spaces to check flying splices.
 
ramsy said:
About 20 years ago GE was first to pass UL 1699 for a circuit breaker without GFPE, but Leviton already had AFCI outlets without GFPE.

The way electrofelon just complained about inspections in Upstate New York, sounds like you guys must hire inspectors from entry level. Probably not the only AHJ dealing with qualified persons moving away for higher wages.

Panel flippers wont remove shoes before traipsing dirt all over the carpet, much less climb in crawl spaces to check flying splices.
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Those that are most qualified to be inspectors, that aren't also nearing retirement age and just looking for something less physically demanding, are likely to look for higher paying positions than most inspector positions are paying.

Younger guys that got out of contracting and became an inspector likely weren't too successful at contracting. They may or may not be good electricians but maybe simply can't run a business by themselves.
 
You always have to take your city or county into consideration. I work all over the Denver metro area (many different city and county AHJ) which unfortunately includes Boulder Colorado. That place has ALWAYS been weird about everything they do. They are the ONLY municipality around here in all these cities and counties that require AFCI breakers on a resi service upgrade whether you want to or not. Even if you did not extend your branch circuits one inch.
And there are changes due to EV chargers. The whole process has expanded because of the many 100 amp panels out there and an EV charger is contiuous duty. Sheesh, I hear the new Ford Lightning charger is 80 amps. AHJ's have totally altered their inspection application process to include full house calcs.
 
ptonsparky said:
I would think your electrician would be familiar with the local requirements.

We upgraded breakers to AFCI only when required, because of adding the 6'or modifying the circuit otherwise.
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I would be very hesitant to call AFCI's a "upgrade", unlike GFCI's, nobody can prove the work.
 
Afci are a good marketing tool. I got to install a breaker anyway why not pay more.
Makes me feel like I am back in the wild west being a snake oil salesman
 
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