Breaker requirements for swimming pool equipment

[lanel]

I spoke with the builder who sent a plumber out to do the wiring and he was trying to convince me that since the feeder panel was already installed and since they were connecting to that and not back to the house panel, it was not a requirement to have a licensed electrician to wire the equipment. He went further to say that it is common practice and done all the time.

He is trying to justify his action in sending out someone incompetent to do electrical wiring, much of which will have to be torn out and replaced.

 

[roger]

Stand your ground

 

[lanel]

Stand your ground

I am on this and other issues. Today the builder sent a licensed eletrician out to see what has to be replaced. It's amazing how having a claim served can get people motivated.

The electrcian seemed to be trying to discourage the use of GFCI breakers saying they would trip when the pumps came on and off. But I told him I wanted them installed anyway and would deal with it if it bacame a problem.

 

[lanel]

As for the electrician saying the GFCI breakers will trip when the pump turns on and off (although it stays on 24/7) I had to wonder if that was correct or if he was trying to save money on breakers. We have a large irrigation pump at the lake on a GFCI breaker and it has never tripped.

 

[retirede]

I wasn't around when they were installed but wouldn't be surprised at anything.

As for the electrician saying the GFCI breakers will trip when the pump turns on and off (although it stays on 24/7) I had to wonder if that was correct or if he was trying to save money on breakers. We have a large irrigation pump at the lake on a GFCI breaker and it has never tripped.

Going back to post 16, or so…..variable speed pool pumps are known to have nuisance trip issues with some brands of GFCI breakers. Your irrigation pump is probably not variable speed?

 

[lanel]

Going back to post 16, or so…..variable speed pool pumps are known to have nuisance trip issues with some brands of GFCI breakers. Your irrigation pump is probably not variable speed?

You are correct that the irrigation pump is single speed. It also does not get used that often. But I still want them to install a GFCI breaker at least on the pump. It seems like as a licensed electrical contractor, they would be obligated to use a GFCI anyway. For me, it is a potential safety issue.

 

[andyselec@aol.com]

I personally put everything associated with a pool on gfci even before it was code. I don't buy my material my customers do so I am spending their money so I can sleep good at night knowing I did The safest job on their pool. Pools and electricity can be dangerous. That equipotential bonding is very important for preventing strange shocks

 

[retirede]

You are correct that the irrigation pump is single speed. It also does not get used that often. But I still want them to install a GFCI breaker at least on the pump. It seems like as a licensed electrical contractor, they would be obligated to use a GFCI anyway. For me, it is a potential safety issue.

I’m certainly not recommending that you skip the GFCI requirement for a pool pump. Only pointing out that VS pumps are known to have issues with nuisance tripping and those issues need to be dealt with.

 

[lanel]

A licensed electrician has removed/replaced the 1 inch conduit and cable between the feeder panel and the control. I can't see any markings as to the wire gauge but the cable he used 4 conductor aluminum. For some reason I was thinking that only copper could be used as a swimming pool feeder.

Does the aluminum meet code if installed in conduit?

He removed the double tap from two breakers and installed wire nuts. Are wire nuts acceptable?

He still has two GFCI breakers to install which he says are on order, One for the filter pump/booster pump and another fhr the heat pump.

The neutral in the feeder panel he split into two for connection to the terminals. Is this OK or does a lug need to be installed?

He used zip ties to secure the flex at the control to the fence. Looks sort of sloppy but eventually the control will be moved onto the side of a pool house.

And for some reason, I'm guessing that the nut on the conduit was hitting it, he removed a knockout on the feeder panel and left it open for wasp, etc to get into.

And on the control, he abandoned the 1" hole that was being used and knocked out a new hole leaving the old hole open.

Maybe I am overly picky but some of this seems sloppy at the least. But do you guys see or know of any code violations? I am in particular concerned of the use of aluminum is acceptable in this case. Don't know why but I seem to have read somewhere that for a swimming pool feeder it must be copper.

Please educate me. Thanks

 

[norcal]

GE breaker in a Siemens panel, no bushing on fitting, black with yellow stripe being as a grounding conductor, neutral conductor split & terminated under 2 screws, open 1/2" knockout, that is conduit size not the size of the opening, are what I see as failures in the photos, not good. Even the more minor issue of a open KO means wasps or other insects building nests in the panel, or just as bad rodents nesting in the panel & leaving urine & fecal matter inside.

 

[Little Bill]

That was the plumber's BIL that came back to do the corrections!

 

[retirede]

I have never seen strands from a single conductor split and terminated under two screw terminals.

 

[lanel]

I have never seen strands from a single conductor split and terminated under two screw terminals.

He's creative. That would not have crossed my mind and I would have purhased a lug. It even looks like a strand is broken.

That was the plumber's BIL that came back to do the corrections!

I doubt this guy knows the plumber unless he met recently on some pool jobs the builder is doing. I gave him a partially filled out affidavit (doing the county's job for them) and asked he fill it out and bring back. He said he did not know his license number but would take it home, fill out and return. Haven't seen it but will press to get one. Licensed or not, it is sloppy looking.

black with yellow stripe being as a grounding conductor

What's wrong with that? The quad cable that was ran from the house to the pool feeder panel has (3) conductors and (1) smaller yellow striped wire for ground.

The electrician tried to talk me out of any GFCI breakers saying they would nusiance trip. I told him I wanted everything to code and if it was an issue I would deal with it later. He said, as has beem mentioned here, that with the VS pump it would trip every time the pump starts. I explained the pump runs 24/7 so maybe that would not be an issue.

Waiting for more GFCI's and them to label things. I am tired of these people and may take care of adding a neutral lug and plug holes myself.

I don't think I said but when the electrician finished installing the breakers, I was not here and he called asking if I could remotely start the pump. I did but no water was flowing so I shut it off. Found out the GFCI breaker he installed on the pump was not passing the line voltage to the load. The trip button did not work either. I wonder if he found it laying around in his truck. So the regular breaker was put back in until he can get a GFCI.

 

[ramsy]

For some reason I was thinking that only copper could be used as a swimming pool feeder. Does the aluminum meet code if installed in conduit?

NEC 680.25(B) over-rides other chapters for pool installations, and specifically prohibits conduit type being aluminum. Perhaps chlorine in the water is corrosive over time to nearby equipment. For the wire 680.6 punts to Chapter 3 wiring methods and section 250.

250.62(A) only prohibits aluminum termination within 18" above ground, that's why industry practice uses solid #8 copper for rebar & equipment bonding, unless it hits a ground rod or other GEC electrode, which requires #6cu for protection from damage, per 250.64(b)(1).

 

[ramsy]

..gave him a partially filled out affidavit (doing the county's job for them) and asked he fill it out and bring back. He said he did not know his license number but would take it home, fill out and return. Haven't seen it but will press to get one. Licensed or not, it is sloppy looking.

The electrician tried to talk me out of any GFCI breakers saying they would nusiance trip.

Waiting for more GFCI's and them to label things. I am tired of these people and may take care of adding a neutral lug and plug holes myself.

Property insurance policy may not cover home owners acting as AHJ or inspectors, unless they are licensed and/or named on municipal permit records as owner-builder for the new construction.

Please advise how home owners are forced to do AHJ municipal inspection themselves for new construction?

 

[ramsy]

No need to hassle with ignoramus contractors if you punt them to municipality, which screens qualifications during electrical-permit process.

If building dpt. clerks remove knuckleheads from learning electrical on your house, remodel, or addition, then inspector reg-tag damage is manageable, and insurance has less legal cause to void casualty claims.

 

[lanel]

A little history.,,,

The builder submitted an electrician affidavit to the county building inspector. If a unlicensed homeowner wants to do their own wiring, they can, but if the builder uses a contractor, they must be licensed and sign an affidavit.

The original wiring the plumber did I knew wasn’t correct so I began to ask questions and stumbled across the affidavit that was submitted to the county. I talked to the inspector and he said I should call the person on the affidavit and see if he was involved in the wiring. So I called and was told that he did sign the affidavit and was originally going to do the job but he and the builder fell out and the builder got the plumber to wire it.

So I call back to the inspector just prior to the new electrician coming and no new affidavit was submitted to the county. The inspector tells me the city attorney advises them that this is a civil matter between two individuals and the county can not get involved.

In my mind, if the county requires the affidavit then they already became involved. But in spite of this, they will continue to approve new permits for builder.

So although the county isn’t asking for a valid affidavit, I am getting one. When I confronted the builder, he said because I already had the feeder panel that anyone can wire it and no license is required. The inspector says otherwise but like I said, they don’t seem to be taking it seriously.

 

[ramsy]

So I call back to the inspector just prior to the new electrician coming and no new affidavit was submitted to the county. The inspector tells me the city attorney advises them that this is a civil matter between two individuals and the county can not get involved.

Perhaps AHJ uses affidavit from GC's for their indemnity. Ask a licensed electrician experienced with your municipality?

In my mind, if the county requires the affidavit then they already became involved. But in spite of this, they will continue to approve new permits for builder.

That means you get inspections

So although the county isn’t asking for a valid affidavit, I am getting one. When I confronted the builder, he said because I already had the feeder panel that anyone can wire it and no license is required. The inspector says otherwise but like I said, they don’t seem to be taking it seriously.

 

[Buck Parrish]

You are correct that the irrigation pump is single speed. It also does not get used that often. But I still want them to install a GFCI breaker at least on the pump. It seems like as a licensed electrical contractor, they would be obligated to use a GFCI anyway. For me, it is a potential safety issue.

I put almost every breaker to heat, pump, covers, lights, salter, general outlet and even sump pumps under the pool.
I've not had any call backs. I use ITE or Siemens.

 

[Buck Parrish]

(Just noticed I did not include GFCI ) I put almost every breaker on GFCI to heat, pump, covers, lights, salter, general outlet and even sump pumps under the pool.
I've not had any call backs. I use ITE or Siemens.

IMO the Neutral is the most important wire. Because if it fails your equipotential bond could become energized. You're supposed to use copper under corrosive conditions. Like chlorine