Breaker won't trip...

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00zer said:
Question 2. The wireman shorted the wires to see if the new breaker would trip. (Yes, I know this is a very bad idea but it is what happened.) Apparently, the new breaker did not trip. The wireman called me and I told him to install a new receptacle and ask the homeowner to temporarily plug the heater into another circuit.


Your wireman created an arcing fault by touching the wires together, not a bolted fault. If he had solidly connected the two wires together, with the power off, and then turned on the breaker, I suspect it would have tripped very quickly. By the way, this procedure is NOT recommended as a diagnostic tool. It is difficult to determine if you damaged the conductors and/or other equipment on the circuit during such a test. Your wireman has re-discovered the reason that arc-fault circuit breakers were invented (let's not argue over their effectiveness here). An arcing fault has enough impedance that a standard circuit breaker just sees it as a load. The amount of that load would be determined by many factors, such as the distance for the arc, temperature, content of the metal to which the arc was connected, and the length of time that the arc was present. The reason that the original breaker did not trip is also probably because the original fault was an arcing fault. There may have been a loose connection at the receptacle or the springs in the receptacle itself may have been week. In any event, an arc was formed that the circuit breaker interpreted as a load. The magnitude of the load was below the trip point of the breaker, so heat was created that eventually melted the plug. Unfortunately, all of this is normal and a standard circuit breaker does not provide much protection in such a scenario.
 
haskindm said:
If he had solidly connected the two wires together, with the power off, and then turned on the breaker, I suspect it would have tripped very quickly. By the way, this procedure is NOT recommended as a diagnostic tool.
Should NOT be recommended AT ALL... It too can have catostrophic effect....
 
e57 said:
Should NOT be recommended AT ALL... It too can have catostrophic effect....

Kinda like an intrepid tech in the Air Force who decided to troubleshoot some bad avionics by HOLDING the breaker IN till something smoked. (The breakers on military aircraft are a push-button style, the button pops up exposing a white band when tripped, and they can be held closed against a fault.) (The logic of that was explained to me as during an in-flight emergency, the aircrew may need to keep a vital circuit powered up despite the damage or risk of electrical fire.)

He found the problem all right..and smoked the main wiring harness in the airframe from cockpit to tailcone.

Two weeks and over $78,000 in damage later the problem was fixed.

The tech was fined, court-martialed and booted from the service.

I have personally had way too many breakers, disconnect switches and devices blow up "in my face" to ever risk trying the short it out method of finding breakers or troubleshooting.
 
I hope nobody interpreted this to mean that I was endorsing doing this under any circumstances as a diagnostic tool or for any other purpose. I was simply trying to point out the difference between a "bolted fault" and an "arcing fault."
 
mxslick said:
Kinda like an intrepid tech in the Air Force who decided to troubleshoot some bad avionics by HOLDING the breaker IN till something smoked. (The breakers on military aircraft are a push-button style, the button pops up exposing a white band when tripped, and they can be held closed against a fault.) (The logic of that was explained to me as during an in-flight emergency, the aircrew may need to keep a vital circuit powered up despite the damage or risk of electrical fire.)

He found the problem all right..and smoked the main wiring harness in the airframe from cockpit to tailcone.

Two weeks and over $78,000 in damage later the problem was fixed.

The tech was fined, court-martialed and booted from the service.

I have personally had way too many breakers, disconnect switches and devices blow up "in my face" to ever risk trying the short it out method of finding breakers or troubleshooting.


We had those on my submarine too, mechanics would call us saying there was a problem with a breaker, show to see the button duct taped down and smoking.
 
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