Breakers installed at rough

Merry Christmas
Status
Not open for further replies.
Minuteman

Minuteman

Senior Member
Location
The Sooner Nation
Found out we failed on a rough inspection today. {Somewhere I posted lately that we just passed on the last two... I was wrong}

Was sited for installing all the breakers and landing the wires. Seems this inspector only wants the dedicated laundry circuits and outlets (both washer & dryer) to be installed.

Also, he failed the NM that was run in the non metallic flex tubing to the kitchen island.

EDIT: it was flex PVC

Huh, whats this??? Another inspector - same city, passed us on the other house. :confused: Who is right? They are using the '02 cycle.

[ January 10, 2006, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Minuteman ]
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Landing all the breakers at the rough is not a safe practice. You put all the trades at risk in so doing.

IMO, when you energize a circuit, you've stated that the full circuit is in compliance with the code, and ready to rock 'n' roll. Therefore, IMO, the inspector is justified in failing based on the lack of devices, covers, etc. You energize, you're calling for a trim inspection, IMO.

Also, he failed the NM that was run in the non metallic flex tubing to the kitchen island.
Click to expand...
See ('02) 362.12(10). If ENT is not permitted where subject to physical damage, then it can't protect NM from physical damage.

I was about to say, use metal flex like me; then I saw that it's not allowed where subject to physical damage either. So, I guess I'll just scratch my head and wander back out where I came in... :p
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

I don't connect anything to breakers for a rough-in; I just have the homeruns hanging loose at the panel. I've never had an inspector say anything to me about this, so I assume doing it this way is OK with them. The NEC doesn't say anything about what is to be done for a rough-in and what is to be done for a final; that would all be determined by the AHJ. Even so, I don't think it's a good idea to heat up a breaker until all the wiring and devices connected to it are ready to go.

As to protecting your NM in the kitchen, that's another nice gray area. I don't use non-metallic flex tubing for anything. When faced with the situation you describe, I'd most likely sleeve the NM with FMC (for a short run) or use MC cable if it's going to be more than a few feet. This practice has also never been mentioned by any of the inspectors I've dealt with, so I assume it's OK with them.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Thanks George.

I called a buddy who also contracts but does WAY more new house than us. He said basically the same thing as you did about the breakers. But what does the NEC say?

And, I stand corrected, we put in flex PVC (Carflex) not ENT with the NM in it. (The flex is embedded in the slab) My buddy says that he uses UF in the Flex PVC.

The first house was passed by an inspector that has been around for years and the failed inspection came from a guy who has been inspecting here for less than a year. :confused:
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Get some ent couplings onto both ends. Send the ent all the way into the panel, and at the Island terminate the ent into an approved for the use box. Run thwn conductors with a ground wire all the way.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

If it wasn't for the theft factor, guys here would land the breakers. They get as much done on rough as possible, such as all attic work trim work. I don't see where safety comes in unless we're talking remodels where the service is energized. New homes have no power (well here) until we say so. That is when trim is in.

Did he fail the NM or the ENT?
Is it under the slab or in the slab?

Anything below grade or UG is a wet location. Can't use NM. Must be UF.

ENT can be in concrete
ENT cannot be direct buried
ENT seems OK to me under or in the cabinets if secured to surface and not left flopping around

Everybody here uses Sch 40 to feed islands. No one has proposed ENT to islands.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Originally posted by macmikeman:
Get some ent couplings onto both ends. Send the ent all the way into the panel, and at the Island terminate the ent into an approved for the use box. Run thwn conductors with a ground wire all the way.
Click to expand...
Mac,

{It's Flex PVC not ENT} I could run the conduit into an approved box on the island, if the island was there, but it's a rough. And running it back to the panel isn't practical because it has to be on one of the small appliance circuits.

But what does the NEC say?
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Originally posted by sandsnow:
Is it under the slab or in the slab?
Click to expand...
The island was an after thought. We cut and chiseled a trench in the slab, dropped in the Flex PVC, and poured back.

The "CORRECTION NOTICE" says, "Can't put all the breakers in just a dedicated 110 & 220" and "Wire under slab has to be approved for wet location."

So I guess I can just replace the NM with UF and pull all the breakers but the laundry circuits and install the outlets because that the way HE wants it but what would you do?
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

"Landing all the breakers at the rough is not a safe practice. You put all the trades at risk in so doing."

Why do you assume there is power to the panel?
OR he hasn't capped off all the hots if it is?

Michael, What code section did he give as a violation? If he didn't, call him and ask for one!
I don't see any violation in this install.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

PVC flex IS rated for wet location...I always install AND terminate all breakers, neutrals/grounds for my rough inspections. Inspector won't even come out until thats done.
What state are you in?
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

lawelectric,

I'm in Oklahoma. The home is NOT energised... yet (until I call for it) I installed the PVC because it is approved for wet. And this Newbie did not cite a code reference. But I will call him in the AM.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Originally posted by Minuteman:
Also, he failed the NM that was run in the non metallic flex tubing to the kitchen island.
Click to expand...
I assume that flex was in a slab?

300.5(D)(5) Listing. Cables and insulated conductors installed in enclosures or raceways in underground installations shall be listed for use in wet locations.
Click to expand...
Location, Wet. Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.
Click to expand...
NM is not rated for wet locations, you will have to use UF or conductors with a "W".
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

There is nothing in the N.E.C. that says that breakers can`t be installed on rough,why do it is puzzling but to me it is legal as can be.As far as the type of wire in the slab uf only as stated .362.10 6 allows it to be embedded in concrete.IMO the inspector is going beyond his realm of practice.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Originally posted by Minuteman:

The "CORRECTION NOTICE" says, "Can't put all the breakers in just a dedicated 110 & 220" and "Wire under slab has to be approved for wet location."

First part of correction makes no sense.
Please ask him nicely "What the heck he's thnking here?"
He's got you on the second part.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

All to many inspectors think that because they want something that is enough.Take a stand or get walked on over and over.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Originally posted by allenwayne:
All to many inspectors think that because they want something that is enough.Take a stand or get walked on over and over.
Click to expand...
That was S.O.P. when I first started. You could enforce anything if you had a good reason for or could get away with. If it was a big enough bluff then you would have to back down when they pulled out the Code.
I do my best to enforce just the Code.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

I no longer have access to a word-searchable version of the NEC. But I would venture a guess that the word "rough" does not appear in the context of a rough-in inspection. The NEC does not care what state any component is in at any point during the construction process. All the NEC cares about is the final product.

Of course, if you do something wrong during the rough-in, it may be hard to get it right before you turn it all on. But the NEC's solution to that concern is simple: just don't ever turn it on. You could wire an entire house with #18 wire and use 40 amp branch circuit breakers, then walk away without ever calling the utility to connect the service, and let the building rot where it stands. The NEC would have nothing to say about the project.

My purpose for offering this obviously absurd scenario is simply to emphasize the role of the NEC. It explicitly says that it is not a "Design Manual." It doesn't explicitly say this, but it is also not an "Inspection Manual." The NEC is not going to tell the Inspector that at a given stage of construction (e.g., "rough-in"), the following list of stuff must be completed,and the following other list of stuff must not yet be completed. For an Inspector to attempt to use the NEC as justification for saying what the installer may not have completed by the time of the rough-in inspection is an abuse of authority.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Charlie
I agree up to a point that the NEC is not an inspection manual per se.
Allowing someone to proceed from rough where they are heading toward a violation at final would be where the NEC could come into play. It would also be irresponsible of me to be willfully silent there.

example:
Someone stubs PVC sch 40 from underground into a wall and from there up into a ceiling space. The space above the ceiling is used for enviromental air. He just calls for inspection of the walls. The conduit in the walls is fine. The PVC in the ceiling is not, but he didn't call for ceiling. Should I blindly sign it off? No. I write him a correction to transition from PVC to metal. I would allow them to proceed based upon receipt of the correction.

It's up to the AHJ to make up checklists or use aftermarket ones.

I think that turning on the power to a service is left up to the AHJ. I don't think there's anything in the NEC that says you can't turn the power on if your conductors are undersized. The NEC is silent there. There is just a violation.

caveat: I didn't do a search, just working from memory. Maybe there is something in Article 80 even though it's reference only.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

I do agree that if you see a "violation in the making," you should write it up. But that is different than saying, "This house is only at the rough in stage, and you aren't allowed to have that part of the project completed yet."
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top