Bring rest of house to code

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bth0mas20

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Maryland
I had a rough inspection today on a basement I wired. The inspector didnt fail it but said that before the final it will need to have smoke detectors in the bedroom in the existing portion of the house. Their is a smoke in the basement and one in the hall to the rooms that are connected. I can come out of the one in the hallway upstairs and hit the three rooms no problem.
Also the hotwater heater and hvac unit are now enclosed with walls so the inspector said "Since the panel is no longer in line of sight they both need disconnects". I agree with everything he says. Its probally my fault for not catching it first off.

My question is would you charge extra for these problems. I feel that he may be ok with paying for the smokes but not the disconnects.

I didnt say anything in my contract about bringing the rest of the house to code.

This is probally a lesson learned for me.
Thanks in advance.
 
A lot of cities around here have a smoke dectector ordinance no matter how much work you do.

If I understand this correctly the work that was done "may" have created some new code violations. I would say that you are not responsible for this, though, as you eluded to, it may have been better if you could have notified the homeowner that it may have to be done.
 
I agree with the disconnects now being required. However, I would check with your State as to whether interconected smoke detectors are required. You may only need to install battery operated units. In my honest opinion if snaking wire through walls or possibly damaging walls or ceilings becomes an issue in order to install these devices I can't see how they can force you to make this installation as you didn't do any renovations in those areas. If it's a simple install then it's up to you.
 
bth0mas20 said:
This is probally a lesson learned for me.
Thanks in advance.
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You are the professional, and should understand what is required, so on billing the customer.
 
I understand that im the professional but we all have to learn our lessons somehow. Thats understandable isnt it. I have no problem fixing the problems out of my pocket at my loss for a lesson learned.
I just wanted to see if anyone else would try to charge extra or do it as my loss.

And the county requires the smokes to be interconnected and battery back up.
 
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I would charge for everything additional. But my original proposal would have in detail everything I originally planned to do. If you didnt spell it out, you might be in for a little fight.
 
bth0mas20 said:
I understand that im the professional but we all have to learn our lessons somehow. Thats understandable isnt it. I have no problem fixing the problems out of my pocket at my loss for a lesson learned.
I just wanted to see if anyone else would try to charge extra or do it as my loss.

And the county requires the smokes to be interconnected and battery back up.
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You got that right, we ALL learn from our mistakes!!! This is one of the reasons I lose out on alot of jobs. If I do an addition, I want the rest of the dwelling put up to par,(safety calls, not always code). I don't like having my name on "part" of a dwelling. I'm going through that right now, about changing over to a breaker box and alot of two-wire. I'll do it the way it's right in my eyes. I have already been through this before here. I heard, "It's not my money to spend." Bottom line, they are exactly correct. I am single I guess because I am so stubborn. I like it done to the best it can be with what you have already in place. O.K., I'm rambling.

Stillllllll learning from mistakes, never the first, never the last:grin:
 
Sure the customer has to pay the same thing happened to me once and I just explained to the customer if the wanted the final done we had to make the city happy. The city doesn't tell you they will require these things most of the time you find them out the hard way. I had a customer who had a low voltage smoke and alarm system and the inspecter made us install 120V interconnected smokes. that looked pretty stupid but thats what it took.
 
[/quote]Also the hotwater heater and hvac unit are now enclosed with walls so the inspector said "Since the panel is no longer in line of sight they both need disconnects". I agree with everything he says. Its probally my fault for not catching it first off.
Did you build the walls? If the HO has had work done that now has caused a violation it is not your fault. Just explain the inspector is requiring this work to be done to pass final and charge accordingly. It is sometimes easy to see something is a violation, show it to the HO and correct with no problem. But, there are times we cannot see every thing or read the inspectors mind.
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Also the hotwater heater and hvac unit are now enclosed with walls so the inspector said "Since the panel is no longer in line of sight they both need disconnects". I agree with everything he says. Its probally my fault for not catching it first off.
Did you build the walls? If the HO has had work done that now has caused a violation it is not your fault. Just explain the inspector is requiring this work to be done to pass final and charge accordingly. It is sometimes easy to see something is a violation, show it to the HO and correct with no problem. But, there are times we cannot see every thing or read the inspectors mind.
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Were the walls there when you quoted the price? if they were then the homeowner is depending on you expert knowladge to know the codes and area requirements at the time you quote, it is not very professional to add in requirenments at the end of the job, when you should of known them before you started.

If the homeowner but the walls up after you quoted, the job then they should not be supprised to get billed for the added work.

"there are times we cannot see every thing or read the inspectors mind."

Your scope of work should cover what will be included, and as for read the inspectors mind, those days are long gone, inspectors inforce the code, which is what you work by.
 
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FYI on the building code for those that may not know regarding smoke detectors.

from 2006 International Residential Code:

R313.2.1 Alterations, repairs, and additions. When alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings, the individual dwelling unit shall be equipped with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings; the smoke alarms shall be interconnected and hard wired.

Exceptions:
1. Interconnection and hard-wiring of smoke alarms in existing areas shall not be required where the alterations or repairs do not result in the removal of interior wall or ceiling finishes exposing the structure, unless there is an attic, crawl space or basement available which could provide an interconnection without the removal of interior finishes.
2. Work ionvolving the exterior surfaces of dwellings, such as the replacement of roofing or siding, or the addition or replacement of windows or doors, or the addition of a porch or deck, are exempt from the requirement of this section.

c2500
 
I have run into this same situation in a few larger cities near me. The inspectors want (at minimum) battery powered smokes in all required locations regardlesss of where the work is being performed. I have a brother who is a firefighter/fire marshal, and is actively seeking to get this to be a law in CT.Since I learned of this requirement from these cities, I make the customer aware that someone needs to install the smokes before inspection-being battery powered it doesnt matter to me who installs them, as long as they get installed.One thing i am curious about-I have never seen a disconnect on a hot water heater? This is not an NEC requirement, is it?
Bill
 
c2500 said:
FYI on the building code for those that may not know regarding smoke detectors.

from 2006 International Residential Code:

R313.2.1 Alterations, repairs, and additions. When alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings, the individual dwelling unit shall be equipped with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings; the smoke alarms shall be interconnected and hard wired.

Exceptions:
1. Interconnection and hard-wiring of smoke alarms in existing areas shall not be required where the alterations or repairs do not result in the removal of interior wall or ceiling finishes exposing the structure, unless there is an attic, crawl space or basement available which could provide an interconnection without the removal of interior finishes.
2. Work ionvolving the exterior surfaces of dwellings, such as the replacement of roofing or siding, or the addition or replacement of windows or doors, or the addition of a porch or deck, are exempt from the requirement of this section.

c2500
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There you go, now you just have to see if the homeowner built the walls after you quoted the job.
 
Your scope of work should cover what will be included, and as for read the inspectors mind, those days are long gone, inspectors inforce the code, which is what you work by
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What planet are you from? Can you tell me you have never ran across an inspector that wants you to do something ,even though he cannot back it up with code? And then you must explain to him if it's not code it's not going to happen. I have had jobs where I knew the original install was NOT code compliant only to bring it to the inspectors attention and have him say " well it's not been a problem for this long".
All i am saying is we all have missed something at looking over a job. At the most I would tell the HO (if I knew the walls were going in) I missed this and only charge for material.
 
It depends how your contract is written.

1). If you list included items in the contract and those items aren't included, they're extra.

2). If your contract includes anything and everything needed to pass inspection, they're included.

3). If your contract includes everything on a provided blueprint and they're not on the blueprint, they're extra.

If you don't have a contract, good luck working it out.

I typically do it the first or third way. If there is no print, or I'm informed of unwritten changes to the print, I list quantities of switches, duplexes, fans, lights, etc.

Illinois has many inspectors with varying interpretations of the NEC as well as various amendments to the NEC. There's no predicting what will be required even between two inspectors in the same building department.

Dave
 
ceb58 said:
What planet are you from? Can you tell me you have never ran across an inspector that wants you to do something ,even though he cannot back it up with code? And then you must explain to him if it's not code it's not going to happen. I have had jobs where I knew the original install was NOT code compliant only to bring it to the inspectors attention and have him say " well it's not been a problem for this long".
All i am saying is we all have missed something at looking over a job. At the most I would tell the HO (if I knew the walls were going in) I missed this and only charge for material.
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No not since 1986
Can you tell me you have never ran across an inspector that wants you to do something ,even though he cannot back it up with code?

No not since 1986 our inspectors are now well trainned, and professional, they back it up in writing.

Our licensed electricians, on this planet, have to complete 34 hours of CEU's and are expected to know how to look up and apply the code sections.

"All i am saying is we all have missed something at looking over a job. At the most I would tell the HO (if I knew the walls were going in) I missed this and only charge for material."

So you look the job over to price it, and miss it, then you plan the job, and miss it, then you do the job and miss it, then the inspector finds it?

But you are right about making some kind of adjustment with the homeowner, something you don't want to happen to often.

The codes are not a secret, but on your planet they want you to do something ,even though they cannot back it up with code, sounds like your planet is the stange one.
 
Tiger Electrical said:
It depends how your contract is written.

1). If you list included items in the contract and those items aren't included, they're extra.

2). If your contract includes anything and everything needed to pass inspection, they're included.

3). If your contract includes everything on a provided blueprint and they're not on the blueprint, they're extra.

If you don't have a contract, good luck working it out.

I typically do it the first or third way. If there is no print, or I'm informed of unwritten changes to the print, I list quantities of switches, duplexes, fans, lights, etc.

Illinois has many inspectors with varying interpretations of the NEC as well as various amendments to the NEC. There's no predicting what will be required even between two inspectors in the same building department.

Dave
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So is Jersey to only place in the country, that has it together?

Then what ceb is saying makes sense if the inspectors have varying interpretations of the NEC, as well as various amendments to the NEC.

There's no predicting what will be required even between two inspectors in the same building department.

no wonder he wanted to know what planet, no one can work under thoose conditions without looking like a dummy, time to get active with the contractors assn. and lobby the state for improvements in the inspection process.
 
I am exactly like Dave's post states. List the items on the contract. My standard contract sheet often does not have room for everything on page 1. I make an attachment with a signature and date line up for each job that I do that requires more space because of the amount of verbage. We are contractors, so therefore we contract. A-line has his customers sign off at the end of each job in addition to the sign off prior to starting up. I like this approach, might just have to incorporate it into my routine.
 
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