Broken Mirror

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sfav8r

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
OK, this isn't technically an electrical question, but I'm curious what everyone thinks.

I have a guy trimming out a house today and I just received a call telling me that while installing two sconce lights on a bathroom wall, the mirror on which they were being installed cracked. The mirror was installed two days ago and is a large wall-to-wall. He says he was barley tightening it and was going from left to right to keep the pressure even. There is about a 1/4 gap between the mirror and the sheetrock.

What do you think?
1) Automatically our cost?
2) Should be able to apply enough pressure to mount the fixture without breaking the mirror?
3) Remove all evidence we were trying to install lights and blame it on the plumber :roll:
4)???
 
charlie b

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Out flew the web and floated wide; The mirror crack'd from side to side; ?The curse has come upon me,? cried the Lady of Shalott. (Tennyson)
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You broke it, you own it. Sorry, but that's how I see it. It was a risk to install a light directly onto a mirror. But you accepted that risk when you accepted the assignment.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
While I am leaning Charlie's direction the glass installer should also have a clue. When they cut a hole for the box they should also know the mirror must be supported behind the fixture. If it was not supported behind the fixture I think they should be willing to make a deal with you.
 
ultramegabob

ultramegabob

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
As much as I hate to say it, I think you are responsible. I have been on this end of things before and just had to eat it, next time study what you are working on and point out the hazards to whoever you are working for. You can try Iwires suggestion about trying to get the glass installer to take part of the responsibilty, but dont hold your breath....
 
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macmikeman

Senior Member
Location
Planet macmikeman
Start providing for these type of issues in your contracts. Saves on headaches. The computer comes with the ability to size and create fine print boiler plate which over the years grows and grows.
 
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sfav8r

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
No takers for option 3?

Alright, It looks like we're buying a nice 54" x 80" mirror with 3 cutouts :mad:.

I guess what bugs me is that the guy who did this is one of the most cautious I have. He put the first 2 on with no problem and was going back and forth between the left and right screws to keep the pressure even when it cracked. What else can you do? any way...that's life sometimes.

Thanks for the input.
 
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bobsherwood

Senior Member
Location
Dallas TX
I would go to the glass guy.... The mirror should support the fixtures... What's going to be different with the new mirror? It might break too if it's not properly supported around your box????
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Opinion:

Offer to pay for the mirror if the mirror guy covers the labor. You've nothing to lose.

(How did he expect the devices to be rigidly mounted? He knew what the holes were being cut for.)

Make sure there are spacers around the holes behind the mirror so it can't flex.

Use spacers on the device/strap screws so they'll tighten wothout flexing the mirror.

Maybe even adjust, extend, or replace the boxes so they're flush with the mirror surface.
 
mivey

mivey

Senior Member
LarryFine said:
Ethics aside for the moment, isn't it obvious that the cracks emanate from the fixture holes? Why would he be messing with them?
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Tell them it is due to an electric phenomenon known as skin effect and it proves the plumber is at fault.
 
mivey

mivey

Senior Member
I think there is responsibility on the other party to provide an adequate surface for mounting. I would definitely claify that before round #2. If you can't have a meeting of the minds, the light might have to go somewhere else.
 
growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
sfav8r said:
There is about a 1/4 gap between the mirror and the sheetrock.
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bobsherwood said:
I would go to the glass guy.... The mirror should support the fixtures... What's going to be different with the new mirror? It might break too if it's not properly supported around your box????
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I think Mr. bobsherwood is right. Even with a new mirror in place if there is still a 1/4" crack between the sheetrock and the mirror it's going to crack. If they did a nice tight cut out around the box then the electrician is not going to be able to see this gap between mirror and wall until it's to late and the mirror has already cracked.

Most walls are not very straight and the general contractor built the house so I think it's the GC's fault. There are ways to make sure the wall is more straight for a mirror to support a heavy load. A mirror doesn't flex one darn bit and the mirror was to support this load and was not capable of doing so. If those are heavy sconce lights then no one could install them without the mirror breaking. If the glass installer wants to he can try to use enough of the adhesive around the box to prevent it breaking or level the area with mud.

It's their job to install the mirror to support the fixture ( and that's flat against the sheetrock, glass can stand a lot of pressure in compression but doesn't flex ) it's your job to install the fixture.
 
2

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
One of my guys did it once. It was 1/2 my fault because I saw the potential issue (the hole not cut out properly) and I should have done it myself.

Suck it up and consider it tuition.
 
K

Karl H

Senior Member
Location
San Diego,CA
I hate pouring salt on a wound but, during the rough I would have
checked the detail sheets (if there were any) and sized my mud rings
to be flush with the surface of the glass. That way, the Mirror guys
couldn't mount their mirror with out perfectly cutting out the holes.

Life lessons hurt the most. :)
 
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