Broken Mirror

[cowboyjwc]

No takers for option 3?

Alright, It looks like we're buying a nice 54" x 80" mirror with 3 cutouts .

I guess what bugs me is that the guy who did this is one of the most cautious I have. He put the first 2 on with no problem and was going back and forth between the left and right screws to keep the pressure even when it cracked. What else can you do? any way...that's life sometimes.

Thanks for the input.

Man, I was leaning hard towards option 3. Never admit to anything. He should have seen the crack in the mirror when he installed it, though that might be more towards option 4.

 

[CopperTone]

I have that exact situation coming up. we just installed the boxes and the mirror is being installed next week.

So you are saying I should have a waiver signed saying I am not responsible for breaking the mirror when installing the lights? I didn't think much of it until I read this post.

 

[AV ELECTRIC]

The light must be mounted independent of the mirror any attachment of the fixture to the glass could bring the potential of the glass cracking . When the glass was cut for the light theres probably some micro cracks as we know it doesnt take much pressure or vibration to turn it into a major one Show that to the gc . You did not do it on purpose accidents do happen There is a flaw in the mirror with those micro cracks.

 

[LarryFine]

I didn't think much of it until I read this post.

That's why we're here.

 

[ultramegabob]

I wonder how an adjustable mudring would work in this application....

http://tnblnx3.tnb.com/emAlbum/albums/us_resource/gm8182_sc1.pdf

 

[TwinCitySparky]

There is an adhesive product available at my supply house called E-6000 that I have used for this. Place a couple dabs on the screw ends and behind the fixture where it contacts the glass. Tighten only until fixture touches glass and you're done.

That adhesive sticks to glass/metal and is removable. Good stuff to keep in the truck.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

No takers for option 3?

Alright, It looks like we're buying a nice 54" x 80" mirror with 3 cutouts .

Normally I would have said this is on your dime, but I believe that the mirror was installed incorrectly, especially with the cutouts for known electrical devices.

If it was installed by the general contractor then you might have a harder time arguing fault. However, if is was installed by the glass supplier, then there is a reasonable expectation that they should have done it properly and will accept fault.

I am assuming a 54" x 80" mirror was 1/4" glass, so tightening a #6 or #8 screw would not have enough force to fracture this thick of glass on its own. The mirror was pre-stressed and was prone to breaking long before your installer touched it. There is no guarantee that you won't get the full blame for this, but a reputable glass installer would step up and take responsibility. This is definitely something you should be contesting, and I suggest you point out the strength of 1/4" glass as part of your process.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I think the glass Guy need to take some responsibility as He took the responsibility to place the mirror on the wall .The glass guy knew A fixture would be placed there. The mirror guy cannot just float the mirror and not provide adequate backing. All the mirror guy needed to do was place more adhesive around the hole for support and polish the edge of the crack to eliminate stress risers and future crack. Even if the EC did not break the glass today it could have broken days/years from now. Most bathroom light fixtures today are not supported by the electrical box. They need a firm area around the circumference of the electrical box for support otherwise they are loose.

 

[celtic]

If you suspect even for a second that damage will happen to a mirrored wall [and it usually does], you need to be PROACTIVE.


Here is a bathroom from a few years ago:

We wanted NOTHING to do with mounting sconces or devices...

Just look at this disaster waiting to happen....

The GC needs to be informed - as soon as the word "MIRROR" is even mentioned - that a fixture will NEVER be tight/securely fastened to the box under conditions such as these.
Any damage as a result of IMPROPER mirror installation will be the mirror/glass contractors SOLE RESPONSIBILITY.



Unfortunately, you have passed the proactive stage.

The reaction now must be:

Admit Nothing
Deny Everything
Demand Proof
​

 

[e57]

Option 4 should have been a signed waiver before you started installing the lights.

You should have contract language to refuse to install or take responsibilty for glass surface mounting.

So you are saying I should have a waiver signed saying I am not responsible for breaking the mirror when installing the lights? I didn't think much of it until I read this post.

Yes - you should....

Something to the effect of:

'No devices or light fixtures will be installed on or though glass surfaces that are not firmly supported at the edge of the electrical opening by mastic at the time of installation of said glass surface. Glass must be >1/8" clear of the intended for mounting screws on any electrical junction box, and clear of the outside of any electrical junction box. Mastic must fill the gap between the glass surface and Sheetrock substrate at electrical openings, and must be a continuous bead 3/8" - 1/2" in width to provide support of electrical devices under moderate use. With additional mastic used within 6" of the bottom of any electrical opening intended for lighting fixtures. (XYZ Electric) will not be responsible for cracks, fractures breakage or personal injury as a result of installation or use of electrical devices on any glass surface or responsible for damage of unknown origin. (XYZ Electric) also reserves the right to refuse to install electrical devices on surfaces that do not conform to these guidelines.'

Why all that? - because there are some real hacks out there - and a few I am sure are looking to get paid twice.... I don't know how many times the opening was off set of the junction box, or how many times the screw holes were covers by glass... Or have opening too small to install devices at all. Or just a few dabbs of mastic far away from the light fixtures or other opening and a 1/4" gap allows the glass to torque under the weight or use of anything and - POP! The owner or GC signs it off with the glass guy - releases him from responsibility, and he is on the way out the door, and now it is suddenly your problem to make it work because the glass guy has it signed off....
That said there are "Glass Guys" and there are "Professional Glass Fabricators and Installers".... The later will have diamond hole sawed out the opening and buffed the edges. The others will use a compass and a score with nippers to hog out the opening, leaving edges that are sure to crack...

I think the glass Guy need to take some responsibility as He took the responsibility to place the mirror on the wall .The glass guy knew A fixture would be placed there. The mirror guy cannot just float the mirror and not provide adequate backing. All the mirror guy needed to do was place more adhesive around the hole for support and polish the edge of the crack to eliminate stress risers and future crack. Even if the EC did not break the glass today it could have broken days/years from now. Most bathroom light fixtures today are not supported by the electrical box. They need a firm area around the circumference of the electrical box for support otherwise they are loose.

I had one that broke 3 times until I just had to stop and say 'no mass' - turned out the fixture would expand when it was on due to lamp heat, then contract and shatter the glass.

 

[480sparky]

...............Yes - you should....

Something to the effect of:
................

If something like that is not part of your contract, then you probably are unaware of this type of installation is coming your way. As soon as you see the mirror, you should not even think about installing the lights and contact the builder to sign a seperate waiver. If he refuses, then the lights don't get installed.

 

[Nium]

Option 4

Nothing we did could possibly have caused that!

 

[Sierrasparky]

All those waivers are not going to get you the job.
If you have the job then take some time to explain nicely to the GC about the issue. If they want to back charge you and make a stink about it do ya think they would have signed the waiver.
Get real the more paper you throw in the faces of the GC will get you thrown of the job.
You need to handle it smartly and with a soft tone.

 

[ivsenroute]

I think this thread should be moved to the contractors forum. We have pretty strict moderation here except when it comes time to put things where they belong.

 

[480sparky]

All those waivers are not going to get you the job.
If you have the job then take some time to explain nicely to the GC about the issue. If they want to back charge you and make a stink about it do ya think they would have signed the waiver.
Get real the more paper you throw in the faces of the GC will get you thrown of the job.
You need to handle it smartly and with a soft tone.

Did anyone say to rant and rave and shove a gun in the GCs face and demand he sign a waiver?

Just have a section in your contract about it. If you don't, and the situation arises, then calmly inform the GC about your concerns. If he throws you off the job, then you don't need him as a customer anyway.

 

[LarryFine]

I think this thread should be moved to the contractors forum. We have pretty strict moderation here except when it comes time to put things where they belong.

That certainly won't earn you any brownie points with the Mod Squad.

 

[George Stolz]

I think this thread should be moved to the contractors forum. We have pretty strict moderation here except when it comes time to put things where they belong.

Hit the

button on a post in the thread, and ask us to move it.

We do (or I guess should) care, we just don't always notice. We appreciate the help, it's not a nuisance.

 

[George Stolz]

You should have contract language to refuse to install or take responsibilty for glass surface mounting.

Added - thanks.

I'm actually about to go looking for more boilerplate items, I might start a new thread asking for help on that, depending on how the search goes. (Hint: I don't want to hijack this thread.)

 

[satcom]

Working with glass walls, install mounting frames before the glass is installed.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I would have camera ready and have them remove the broken one. If mastic is more than 6 inches from the hole i would blame them. Also be looking to see if the mastic made contact to both the drywall and mirror, if not the wall was bowed and mastic did no good.