Buck-Boost Transformer / Magnetizing Current

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wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Both line- and load-side neutral conductors must connect at the H2, H3 junction.
Why must?

I understand that it may be helpful for robustness and dealing with abnormal operating conditions. But under normal operating conditions of the inverter, wouldn't the current flowing along that connection from the common neutral conductor to H2/H3 be 0? In which case one of the circuit analysis laws says that severing that connection wouldn't change the circuit behavior.

Cheers, Wayne
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
170508-1640 EDT

Forget getting hung up on the word neutral.

What KY Solar wants to do is to create a way to connect his solar inverter(s) to the power company system such that he can transfer power to the utility, but do this at a somewhat reduced voltage level to avoid having his inverter trip on overvoltage.

His inverter must connect to a nominal 240 V center tapped single phase system. This sysrem center tap is also called the system neutral, and is also grounded, but being grounded is irrelevant to his problem. The neutral is only needed as a voltage reference to the inverter.

There are many ways to provide these lower voltage entry points. They all envolve subtracting a voltage from each hot line that is synchronized to line voltage frequency and phase. The simplest is to use one or two transformers.

One method uses a special autotransformer. This transformer consists one single winding with four terminating points, the two coil ends and two taps. This one coil is all wound in one direction on a single core. I will use T for terminal instead of Xs or Hs.. T1 is one end of the coil and connects to one power company hot line. T2 is a tap at a 12 V point and goes to one of the inverter hot lines. T3 is a tap at 240 V minus 12 V and goes to the other inverter hot line. In other words the nominal voltage between T2 and T3 is 240-24 = 216 V. And last T4 goes to the other power company hot line.

By virtue of the center tap on the power company transformer the voltages on T2 and T3 relative to the center tap (neutral) will be nominally 120-12 = 108 V.

This special transformer must use wire large enough between T1 and T2, and T3 and T4 to handle the full output current of the inverter. The transformer wire between T2 and T3 only has to be large enough for the sum of the reflected currents going to the outer coils.

There is no neutral in this transformer, and the equivalent neutral point should not be brought out and connected to power company neutral. The transformer might be easily burned out. Thus, I change my statement in an earlier post that the H2H3 could be connected to power company neutral. Study the circuit to see why.

.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
170508-2122 EDT

kwired:

Tonight my voltages at the instant I measured them were 123.9 and 123.6 with a total load in my home of 1.7 kW. Unknown load from my neighbor. They are the only other load on my transformer plus two street lights. There are times when I am at 125 V. Seldom higher. i don't have solar, it is not economically viable. If I did have solar and my panel voltage rose to around 130 V would I care? I don't know, but if that were the case I would study the possible problems.

I have no evidence that 124 to 125 V is a problem to me.

In our area it is not unlikely to see nominal around the 123 level.

.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
170508-2122 EDT

kwired:

Tonight my voltages at the instant I measured them were 123.9 and 123.6 with a total load in my home of 1.7 kW. Unknown load from my neighbor. They are the only other load on my transformer plus two street lights. There are times when I am at 125 V. Seldom higher. i don't have solar, it is not economically viable. If I did have solar and my panel voltage rose to around 130 V would I care? I don't know, but if that were the case I would study the possible problems.

I have no evidence that 124 to 125 V is a problem to me.

In our area it is not unlikely to see nominal around the 123 level.

.
Same here, and if totally unloaded more likely closer to 125. Sometimes I do run into 127 - 128 levels - POCO regulation issues most likely. 480 volt services usually run 498-503 with little or no load.
 

topgone

Senior Member
170508-1640 EDT

By virtue of the center tap on the power company transformer the voltages on T2 and T3 relative to the center tap (neutral) will be nominally 120-12 = 108 V.

The OP wanted a 5% variation from 240V. The would be 252V max (126V to neutral) or 228V min (114V to neutral).
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Same here, and if totally unloaded more likely closer to 125. Sometimes I do run into 127 - 128 levels - POCO regulation issues most likely. 480 volt services usually run 498-503 with little or no load.
And speaking of regulation issues, the PV output voltage will be higher than the delivered voltage at the POCO secondary by the voltage drop corresponding to the delivered current.
If POCO undersizes the transformer or service wires and then tries to compensate by tapping the secondary voltage up it is not difficult to see the voltage at the inverter terminals being out of range.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
And speaking of regulation issues, the PV output voltage will be higher than the delivered voltage at the POCO secondary by the voltage drop corresponding to the delivered current.
If POCO undersizes the transformer or service wires and then tries to compensate by tapping the secondary voltage up it is not difficult to see the voltage at the inverter terminals being out of range.
Maybe simplest solution for OP is to talk to POCO and see if the service transformer can have taps adjusted. Unless it serves multiple customers it probably isn't a problem for any reasonable POCO customer service, but some like to be difficult just because they can.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Maybe simplest solution for OP is to talk to POCO and see if the service transformer can have taps adjusted. Unless it serves multiple customers it probably isn't a problem for any reasonable POCO customer service, but some like to be difficult just because they can.
Maybe the simplest from the OP's POV but when I encountered this issue the POCO would not budge. Unloaded the 208V was high enough that we read 515V P2P at the terminals of our autotransformer. Our inverters did not like it, so we had to buck the voltage on the 480V side. Lesson learned: if you must use a transformer, use one that has taps so that you can compensate for high voltage from the POCO.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Maybe the simplest from the OP's POV but when I encountered this issue the POCO would not budge. Unloaded the 208V was high enough that we read 515V P2P at the terminals of our autotransformer. Our inverters did not like it, so we had to buck the voltage on the 480V side. Lesson learned: if you must use a transformer, use one that has taps so that you can compensate for high voltage from the POCO.
Those "taps" are pretty common for over 10-15 kVA transformers. Not common at all for buck-boost transformers, but that is why you connect them in buck-boost configurations right?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Those "taps" are pretty common for over 10-15 kVA transformers. Not common at all for buck-boost transformers, but that is why you connect them in buck-boost configurations right?

You just have to be sure that they support a configuration which preserves line to neutral symmetry in the process.
A typical single secondary buck-boost will not do that.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
You just have to be sure that they support a configuration which preserves line to neutral symmetry in the process.
A typical single secondary buck-boost will not do that.

Luckily, the inverters we are using on the three phase project where we had this problem can operate without the neutral, so we were able to use two b-b xformers instead of three of them.
 
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